displacedtexan

To clarify- "from scratch"=blank nozzles, not modifying the stock nozzles

I am far from an expert on the 24v injectors, just offering my thoughts:coffee:

Rods

We know Don is the DTR savior on injectors so how about back on topic of turbos

HOHN

I was hoping my point was clear, but I guess it needs some refinement.

You buy Don M injectors and you know you're getting Bosch bodies with custom made nozzles. You buy a Don M injectors because of the custom nozzle. What if Don was buying nozzles from Bosch then passing them off as his own novel invention? OOOO-- now THAT might be a little shady, eh? What if he was buying them from another injector maker and passing them off as his own?

That, my friends, is the root of my objection. If you are using off-the-shelf compressors from B-W, then why not admit it and publish the maps? If you're doing something proprietary in-house (hard to believe that the wheels are such), then I can see the need to keep that a secret, and this would also be a competitive advantage.

Then again, if you ARE using custom, in-house wheels, why not publish THOSE maps to show the superiority?

On the turbine side, these shops are tweaking the housings a bit, but I highly doubt they are carving their own wheels-- so again we see that the turbines are off the shelf from B-W.

Listen, there's no shame in using on off-the-shelf compressor or turbine wheel. Designing those things are VERY sophisticated engineering, and well beyond the reaches of a local shop, even a larger local shop. Off the shelf wheels from the big companies are proven and functional, designed using CFD software that takes a lot of computing power to run.

So why not disclose that? Why not admit a position that is perfectly tenable? Why the mystery?

Again, if one of these shops were to just lay it out there, it would establish tons of credibility in my mind. So what if they take an S300g, mod the turbine housing and put a spacer plate on the WG after enlarging it.

The bottom line is that the dieselturboshops have nothing to lose and everything to gain by sharing what they do. Does anyone really care that HTTs stainless housings are made by Bullseye and not done in-house? I doubt it.

So here's my points in a manner that ANYONE can understand:

-- Dieselshops are tweaking off-the-shelf turbos using mostly standard parts (turbine housings being themost "customized" part)
-- These off the shelf turbos are considerably less expensive than the modded ones.
-- because we don't know what is done, we can't determine if the additional cost is worth it.
-- We can't pick turbos based on compressor maps because they aren't furnished.
-- There's no good reason to hide the compressor maps.
-- The lack of forthrightness encourages distrust of the vendor.

Justin

600 Megawatts

Well, I haven’t even been on this forum in at least 3 months. But I go on tonight, and I find this thread. So now I'm gonna do what I normally do, and that’s speak facts, which some might think is stirring some stuff up, but its just the facts.
The reason most of these so called 'turbo experts' don’t give you maps, is because they don’t have them. Most of these folks are total snake oil salesmen, with absolutely no technical background. And if their lucky, they manage to stumble onto a combination of turbine wheel, compressor wheel and housing that accidentally works fairly well. But they don’t have a clue as to why and can't possibly grasp the thermodynamic factors which make even a stock turbo function, let alone a custom one work better. These guys couldn’t even tell you what enthalpy is, yet they claim to be turbo experts. What a joke. And they are laughing all the way to the bank. They market and advance their product, predominately with salesmen who post on internet forums as ecstatic new owners of their goodies, ranting on and on how much better it works than the last brand X piece of marketing crap they bought. These forums are riddled with those salesmen. I never met him, but from what I have read it appears that one of the few people who actually understand the true technical details of high performance turbocharging was Pius Eberle.


And the same thing can be said for the 'injector experts' and also the "F_SS" people . Don’t even get me started on those guys.....


Like they say..... There is a sucker born every minute.........



And, anyway, why are you looking for a trick single Hohn??? I know that you know a small compound setup would be far superior. Just quit messing around and reserve yourself to do a little bit of fabrication and build that small twin setup we always talked about. Don’t be afraid of a little welding and engine compartment re-arranging.....



Kp

HOHN

KP-- get ta searchin' my friend! I've been on the twins so much you'd think I was obsessing or something!

sam616g

Hi, I'm new here but I've lurking for a while now. This thread got me curious for more turbo info. Specifically II. They offer a "PS66" rated at 650 hp and a "Silver 62" also rated at 650 hp. I was just wondering if the turbo gurus here have any opions on the two or even comparable "stainless" stuff from other venders. Which would be better for towing vs better for performance. Which would spool better, drive better, or cool better (both normal driving and wot).
Thanks.


96 2500, SLT, CC, 4X4, 4.10, PDR HX40, custom plate, DDP 3's, 4k gsk, HTT 3 piece, 4" exhaust, & AFE STG II, AFC spring kit, BD valve body, Pro Torque, JRE rebuild. KDP KIA 6/16/03 R.I.P. Gages; boost, pyro, & trans temp. H2 wheels, BFG 315/70/17.
A big thanks to Noble High Performance.

NoSeeUm

One of the funniest phrase I ever heard an intern say about design and manufacturing was:

NO EXPERT HERE:

Blade clipping is a more than likely simply a cheaper way to make a turbo, which does not exaxtly perform to the design application, perform to the design application.

In the case of blade clipping it probably boils down to dollars and sense. I am thinking that it might end up being cheaper to trim the blades than to re-design / remanufacture a turbo already in production. Or to make a turbo not quite for the intended application work in that application.

Lets face it though, this happens all the time with case / wastegate machining etc.... It even probably happens with injectors. There is allot of smoke and mirrors out there.

End the end who cares as long as reliability is not compromised. You still end up with a viable working turbo.

Suspecting that Hohn is a purist though.

Jim

PaulDaisy

Ya think?!
I can't understand why there are still consumers around that want to be educated about the products they want to buy. If it keeps going this way we may have voters who think whom they vote for
-P

HOHN

I'm not sure that I'm a purist-- it depends on how you mean it. I always associated purists as being the kind of people that get all upset with a GM-powered Mustang, or that kind of thing.

I *am* an idealist-- no doubt about that. I have a very strong sense of how things "ought" to be, and the strength of that feeling often causes problems for me in seeing "how things are." In my core, I refuse to believe that something has been perfected, or that there's no better way.

So I tend to be a little cranky when my sense of "ought" or "proper" is either violated, or proven to be wrong (pretty common, actually-- my therapist says I'm coping well)

I don't have an axe to grind against any of the dieselturboshops. The turbos they are selling have done really well compared to the older-design Holsets that dominated diesel performance before them. For the first time, you can actually use something bigger than an HX40 and still tow, or make more than 40psi without fear that the turbo will grenade, or make more than 450hp without some holset hybrid concoction that's plagued by lag.

I do think they could market their produts a little better, but maybe I'm too optimistic in my assessment of the typical consumer. Maybe most people really don't care that they might be paying $2K for an $800 turbo with a polished housing and a little machine work.

Justin

thekidfan

I disagree completely, they do an AMAZING job marketing and to quote someone that explained to perfectly

"Maybe most people really don't care that they might be paying $2K for an $800 turbo with a polished housing and a little machine work."

You hit the nail on the head!!

Iron Horse

My argument in this thread is not that people should not question what is being marketed to them, it is the hypocrisy of the original poster. He follows one product blindly, but then rants about how he can find no information on another.

displacedtexan

They do market very well to that audience Justin mentioned...

But they do a very poor job of marketing to those that want to know WHY to pick their magic turbo over the other ones out there.

HOHN

I can see how it would be perceived as hyprocrisy, but I really see them as different things entirely.

It should be obvious that I consider them to be different, or I'd have pestered Don for the same info before buying sticks.

Iron Horse

I just figured you drank the kool aide like everyone else does on this forum.

HOHN

Kool Aid-- LOL! I remember here on DTR when Don was first whipping up injectors and Rod Snaith was talking about how these were really good, and how Wildcat Diesel (now defunct) was only carrying Don M injectors and dropped their other lines.

This was mid-late 2003, if I remember. I bet Don sold at least 2000 sets of injectors before I got mine. I was late to the game for a reason. Because I can't ask him for his "trade secrets" I had to bide time and wait to see how they did.

An injector is a heck of a lot easier to reverse engineer, so I was more sympathetic to his feeling he can't divulge certain things.

I'm even a little sympathetic to the dieselturboshops. Lord knows, I'd hate to have come up with a simple modification that REALLY improved on off-the-shelf turbo only to have everyone else do it, too.

So as a turbo builder/modifier, these shops also have to protect their own technology.

But how advanced is that technology? Is it worth the money? I guess we just have to judge by word-of-mouth and and see how everyone else does with certain products. It can be done, and lots of people have had good success buying turbos that way.

I prefer to be as informed as I CAN be when I buy something. If someone like Garrett or Turbonetics will furnish me a compressor or turbine map, that will heavily weight in that company's favor--as it should.

No business worth it's salt prefers an ignorant customer.

From what I can tell of the dieselshopturbo shops, all their turbos are modified S300s--and S300s are mostly designed for Series 60s and such, from what I gather--not for performance.

So, the reality I face is that for $2K I can buy the "best" modified S300 each shop can produce.

OR I can buy a turbo from a more technically competent entity (Turbonetics or Garrett/honeywell) that's originally designed for the given application from a PERFORMANCE background, has a ball bearing CHRA that will spool faster, and --get this--

..costs $400 LESS!!

It really makes it hard to justify going with a modded S300-- no matter how popular.

JMO--no better than anyone else's. (unless I can back it up with facts