Interesting things occur to you when you start researching turbos.

Let's take the "62mm" turbos, for example. Examples would be an HTB2 or SS62 from HTT, and a PS62, SPS62 or Silver 62 from Industrial Injection.

Now both HTT and I.I. claim to have unique partnerships with the mother ship: Borg Warner Airwerks. Airwerks is *the* aftermarket division of B-W. I think B-D claims some kind of arrangement, too.

From what I can tell, what we have in the 62mm class is basically an S300g in all kinds of different costumes. Some get bigger turbines, some have fancy housings (OOOO Stainless!), some get pretty polished compressor housings.

HTT says their 62 turbo has a 87mm exducer, while all the "standard" S362 exducers are 85mm, 54 trim wheels. Typo, perhaps? Or maybe these diesel shops are actually getting some kind of special wheels made for them?

Let's assume just for the sake of argument that every 62mm B-W based turbo uses the same wheel. This is pretty likely, in my opinion. B-W is making tons of these wheels each year, and the diesel shops all seem to tout the "extended top compressor" tech that B-W has had for years. How likely is it that Bd, II, and HTT are each getting special one-off wheels carved for them? If you a skeptic like me-- the odds are slim to none. I also don't think any of these shops have a CFD computer over in the corner so they can engineer their own wheels and CNC it out.

So we have essentially ONE 62mm wheel in all these different turbos. The compressor map for this wheel shows that it maxes out at around 73lb/min. That's enough for an honest 530hp or so if you can keep boost down. But the map only goes to a 3.5PR or so-- which will only give you about 450hp of clean, low EGT power.

But look at the claimed HP for the 62mm turbos. We have anything from 650hp for a Silver 62 to 575 for a Super Stock 62.

Now I don't care how efficient your turbine is-- the compressor will only support so much.


So how are they figuring a 62mm wheel supports up to 650hp?? Maybe with a progressive nitrous system?

I'm strongly considering either a Silver 62 or a SS62/71/16ss. But I'm doing that with the realization that I'm looking at a 430-460hp turbo, NOT 600hp!

Once again we are faced with a fundamental problem. WHY CAN'T WE SEE THE FRIGGIN COMPRESSOR MAPS???

I'm highly suspicous that it's only because people might have a finacial interest in hiding the fact that the compressor is just a standard S300g, only good for 450hp given the PR limitations of CTD that hasn't had it's rpm limit raised.


The "diesel shop" turbos have a LOT going for them: pretty tough, good companies selling them, large internal wastegates, etc. But I balk at spending my money with a company that won't tell me exactly what I'm buying.

Now if someone like I.I. were to come out and say "our turbo is a standard S362 compressor with a the 74mm turbine from a larger S370 and a custom turbine housing, and we package it all in an easily installed kit that will support 450hp" then I'd be chomping at the bit to buy one.

Instead it's all just work of mouth and so-and-so has one, and Mr. Bigpowerdieselguy did xxxHP with his dieselshopturbo.

I can't ignore the incredible performance people are having with these turbos, and tons of people are delighted with them. That is almost enough to sway me.

But ALMOST isn't enough. So I'm forced to conclude that I can't show someone my money until they show me what I'm buying so I can know something other than "Secret sauce".

This is quite different than injectors. When I bought my sticks, I had plenty of firsthand DTR guys and TDR guys to ask about them. Don answered all my questions. I saw dyno sheets verifying the HP rating. I saw video of the smoke performance. I wasn't taking that big a risk.

But the marketing for turbos is so out of control that you feel like you're talking a huge risk. These things aren't black magic. They are centrifugal compressors with operating maps. They are gas turbines with operating maps. Those maps tell the story to those of us who are willing to go to that level.

I want a new turbo for my truck, and I'd love to have a diesel shop turbo that did all I want it to. But how can I know that when the maker won't tell me what they've done to make a 450hp turbo support 650hp??

Please don't take this as bashing any vendor. It's whiny I know, and sort of a rant. But these guys aren't helping me to justify parting with my money and doing so with sound mind.

(sorry about the

 

+1

I find this 'rant' informative and substantive. I learned something today, thanks.

 

Did he tell you the hone size and pop off pressure of the injectors you are running?

That seems to be a closely guarded secret, as he will never admit what they are on a message board.

As far as turbos...meh.

All of the popular stuff are either s300g based, like you said, or k31 based. I believe industrial is offering a 71mm turbo based on the s400 now too.

As far as industrial injection stuff goes phat shaft = 65mm turbine, super phat shaft = 71mm turbine, and silver = 74mm turbine, with your choice of compressor wheel.

The larger the turbine, the more exhaust gases that can be moved, but spool up is sacrificed due to the increased mass of the larger turbine wheel.

You also have to factor in how many blades are on the turbine, and if it is a HDP, or LDP wheel.

 

well (being sarcastic here)... could be:

a) 650 at the crank (crank in ultra-fine print)
b) 650 at the rear wheels after a huge positive 20% dyno correction factor applied. So then the vendor goes, "That's actually 700 HP at the crank!!!"

 

You put in words what I have wondered myself for years. I know a couple guys that I used to talk to every week that could give me the skinny, of course they wont talk. Either way one thing I have noticed Borg Warner has really stepped up to the bar. When the "B1" was all the rage you could not get a stock BW S300 anywhere now BW has gotten the aftermarket taken care of.

 

Still...

It is fairly hard to find maps for the staple HX35 / HY35 much less the high performance after market hypes.

Jim

 

I believe I saw some compressor maps on BD's site.

 

Your not the only one Justin. There is a big group of us that feel this way.

X2

 

M6 is around 7x10 give or take a ths and pop is a little below stock , helps on the dyno I guess to get that extra fuel down low ???????


I'v seen a quite a few 62mm chargers do 550+ on dunbars dyno , must b the diesel

 

HOHN, doesnt your sig say it best? PPL on these boards have tried every turbo from the diesel shops and post their experiences almost daily. I believe any one good find a turbo for thier setup with a good use of the search button.

 

I had the same trouble when trying to make out what turbo to get. After working with turbines, axial compressors, turbo expander's and gas flows for the past 10 years I wanted to see some maps with surge lines or something to verify every ones claims. It is a simple thing to request on the compressor portion of the turbo if these guys have really done as much research as they say they would have data. I don't think they always do though.

However, the some of the mysticism is valid as I do not believe it is easy to put on paper the interaction between compressor size, turbine size, 12valve, 24 valve, intake restriction, exhaust restriction, cam's etc... BUT at least give us a hint to a few real world numbers and facts from some of your HP claims. At the minimum give 2 numbers, one for 12 valves and one for 24 valves. How bout some ball park EGT numbers at the HP levels claimed or even boost pressures.

Out of the box my turbo is set a 40 psi, I can tell you with all certainty that it will not support the advertising of "up to 550hp" with sane egt on my 12 valve. Luckily we read the "up to" part and know that 550hp is best case scenario. How about a few more and different numbers other than just one Hp rating?

 

No, I didn't get pop pressure or hole sizes or spray angle or anything other than hole count (which is commonly known with his sticks). I didn't care. Picking injectors isn't like picking a turbo at all. And the business angle is different too.

I can appreciate trade secrets. But a turbo map is NOT a trade secret. What if Don didn't publish HP ratings? What if he only sold one set of injectors, and claimed them as THE most powerful injectors you could get. Well, we'd all ask how much power they make. What if he said "trade secret"? We'd agree it's baloney.

A compressor map (and to a similar extent, a turbine map) is a sales tool when used properly.

See, if *I* had a super-hot turbocharger that I knew is the best on the market, I'd get the compressor map out as widely as I could. I'd produce overlay maps showing the larger map of my superior turbo. I'd highlight how my efficiency islands are both larger and of higher efficiency than the competition. I'd TEACH people how to read compressor maps. I'd show them how I'd proven my product better, and I'd give them knowledge to understand how it's superior.

If you really DO have a better product, then educating the customer can only help you. You don't need to bash another company-- just show how your approach differs, how it's better or not, and why you made the compromises you did-- like why a certain range of compromises can be better in some cases and not in others.

But what do we get from diesel shop turbos? CLAIMS-- claims that don't really jive with the FACTS as best as we can ascertain them. We get dyno sheets-- sheets with unknown correction factors (usually standard SAE correction which is totally inappropriate for a turbodiesel). We don't know the exact combination of parts used on a given truck to back up the claims.

To the credit of Industrial Injection, they have a pretty good attempt to do this on their website with their dyno sheet comparing the SB to another turbo. But there's little information given about the truck, and NO information given about EGT, backpressure, boost levels, etc.

This is far better than what we typically get. Until these shops offer a no-questions 30-day money back gurantee or better, "trust us" just simply isn't good enough.

I need to get more sleep, because I'm getting to be pretty cantankerous in my 30s

Time to make some

 

From HTT's website the compressors are:
62/87 50 trim
64/92 48 trim
66/96 47 tim

If you look at the HTT order form the dealer has to specify if the turbine fins are to be clipped or not. I've never heard anyone mention this

 

maybe they dont know what the maps are
maybe they are just throwing in different sized wheels that they have modified and "just seeing what happens" if it works good on their shop truck then hey...it's a new style turbo

just throwing that out there.......no facts, just speculation

 

Hmm, I think that's the 65mm wheel that gets clipped to try and drop drive pressure. Current thinking is that clipping is a