Have just read a current thread and suddenly got curious about unions. Over the last few years I have been hearing things like: unions have outlived their usefulness and similar comments. They are self serving and do not benefit any industry. The senority rule only benefits the deadwood and does not allow the people properly qualified to get the job. And other comments.
Now, please don't flame me as I am not looking to start a war on what is obviously a very sensitive subject. I genuinly want to hear the comments, pros and cons about this subject. Hope to hear from both union and non-union members as well as company owners or senior managment.

 

Our current contract expired two weeks ago.
The company and the union are still in negotiations.

Sticking points.

Company wants to push more medical costs to the employees.

Company wants to cut medical care for retirees.

Company wants to cut pensions for retirees

Company wants to pay employees with less than 10 years service at a lower pay scale and reduced benefits.

Company wants to reserve the right to lay-off or fire, without notice, employees with less than 10 years service.

Company wants to be able to shift jobs out of the area.

Company wants to be able to shift more jobs to subcontractors.

Company wants to be able to force employees to work overtime.

These are just a few.
I dunno,......What-da-ya-think?

Unions outdated?

Or are Corporations trying to return to company policy from the 1800s.

 

All of what Ed said while company profits go through the roof.

 

pretty simple,
When companies are HONEST and FAIR to employees, UNIONS will not survive. Seems that lately Unions might be making a small comeback, whats that tell you about current state of companies?

PRO- someone who is actually on you side, not a company personel dept. who echos company policy.

CON- another layer of politics and the union orginization does seem to waste a lot of money on politics that do NOT reflect the views of their employees.

Remember, Union or No Union, if a company shuts the doors nobodys getting paid except for the people closing up.

Duane W.

 

Not in a union, but the old man was UAW (local 832) for 35 years in Erie PA, part of the "rust belt". He never had a college degree but made good money doing what he did and got benefits and time off. We had a normal, comfortable middle class life. Never wanted for anything, but did not drive Mercedes or BMW's either. Without the union pushing to get him those pay and benefit packages, things would not have been as comfortable. One of the things the union will do is go to arbitration for a member if the company seems to be screwing with them. Most of the time that is good, although I did hear him mention a few times that some individuals should have been let go a lot sooner than they were (this was rare).
The unions do a lot of good things that people never see or hear about. One example: my grandmother needed a wheelchair. Dad went to the union hall, checked out a wheelchair and we kept it for two years before she passed. Total cost to us: $0.00. There a are a lot other "intangibles" to list that he could talk about as well.
Talk to him occasionally about the "state of the union" (no pun intended) and the job martket. It is our opinion that you just can't walk into a shop like he did 40 years ago, get a job and expect to be there for your retirement. That is sad. Glad he is retired now and has the pension locked in.

 

That is the one bad thing I can see about a union. It will protect your non-performers as well as your top performers. Unfortunately, some people are out there for a ride and will take the easy way out.

 

[quote author=Dieseldude4x4 link=board=10;threadid=18526;start=0#msg173796 date=1061209442]
That is the one bad thing I can see about a union. It will protect your non-performers as well as your top performers. Unfortunately, some people are out there for a ride and will take the easy way out.
[/quote]

I don't know much about unions. But...what Dieseldude said is kind of the same thoughts I've always had. The only experience I have with them is this. When I was a kid my dad took the whole family up to Ohio to build a restaurant. He also took his crew with him. When the union found out he was working up there they tried to FORCE their workers on him and make him send his crew back to Texas. He DID hire a couple of union guys because he needed a couple of extra hands. However, they couldn't carry their weight and flat out told my dad that there was nothing he could do about it because they were union. He fired them....only to have the union mob guys show up the next day telling him that he couldn't fire their people. He reminded them that he already DID fire their people because they wouldn't work. They weren't happy...and my dad was later told he was lucky to get out of their alive...but it all turned out well I guess. Anyway...that's what I know about unions so I guess you can see why I wouldn't like them. Besides that....they don't really play a role in Texas.

 

I face that very thing every day in my industry unfortunately. You have to know who you can trust to get the work done right and on time. It's hard to believe that one member of the "Brotherhood" would do that to another but some will work and some do just exactly what is needed to get by and that is it. Some get special jobs because they can't be trusted in the field but all get treated equal since they are union. To make the kind of money they make here, they should kiss the ground everytime they walk on the property.
Just my old fashioned way of thinking I guess.

 

Mexstan this could be a good topic. As a former business owner (had to close last week) I am not a union supporter. I paid my people well and teated them as adults. If they produced they got raises, extra time off etc. Once a month or so they might have too work an hour or two of overtime, but if they needed time off for whatever they got it and I didn't dock pay. Felt what comes around goes around.

In the late 70's and 80's, I would say that the union had outlived its usefullness. It was getting fat on the backs of the members and not really doing them any favors.

In the last 5-10 years however with the global economy and the unrealistic profit expectations in the stock market, workers are being penalizerd for the actions of the managers. When you see huge layoff numbers the people going out the door are 9 times out of 10 the production workers, not that FAT middle management section that doesn't accomplish much. So the unions can once again play a valuable role in safeguarding their members.

The problem as I see it is that because most unions have forgotten how to fight for the right things and they too are too FAT in the executive postions, they are a hinderence. The union offices will have to thin down too so that more resources can be available to the rank and file. Too much nepotism etc.

But, the biggest fans of unions are now as it has been for at least 50 years, the doggers who don't pull their weight, and laugh as their "brothers and sisters" do their work, while they spend their time on stress leave etc.

So that is my .02. In this current economic climate with mergers and huge rofit expectations ont he part of management, the union is once again neccessary for the well being of the industrial worker.

 

Having spent 8+ years at UPS (one of the few Unions in NC because it is a right-to-(not)work state) and having been privy to the inner workings of the Union as a representative there I will say that it is a 50/50 proposition - there is some good and some bad from both sides of the issue.

As I saw it there was alot of coddling of under-performers but, when time came to back their sorry butts, the slackers were politely given the "so sorry, we tried but can't help you" answer by the union while the hard workers were treated with due respect and helped out as much as possible.

However, with NAFTA I think unions are going to lose out overall because they make the labor market cost unbearable to sustain in the labor-intensive textile and other semi-skilled job functions. Companies are not going to bust the union, they are just going to close the doors and move South of the Border (where there are no unions (yet)). Not a comforting thought that the hard-working blue collar multitudes are potentially going to end up on public assistance because their unions were not able to protect their jobs in a global economy.

Now for skilled workers the situation is a little different because companies cannot replace them elsewhere. However, outsourcing still happens and, unlike France, the government cannot put a stop to it. I doubt you will ever see unions as strong as they were in the period right after WWII because we have transitioned to a service economy instead of a production economy where the unions have traditionally been strong. But, like said before, unions can only happen if the workers are willing to ask for it - and if the company(ies) keep up the tech sector may be the next new frontier for unions.

Bottom line is dollars - who can get how many by whatever means possible - even if it means shutting the plant down and going elsewhere. Unions, like any government, want to perpetuate themselves and will do so by any means possible whether it actually helps or hurts the people they are supposed to be helping.

 

I sometimes wonder if Mexstan likes to incite emotions here with the "sky is falling - WAKE UP U.S.!!" comments and these types of threads?

There are always two sides to every story, especially those involving labor relations. Shovelhead's are one side (which I don't necessarily disagree with), while management has another. Somewhere in the middle is a balance; Unfortunately finding that happy medium can get really ugly sometimes.

I grew up in Detroit which has its share of blue collar workers and unionized workforce. I have lots of UAW, IBEW, and Teamster family and friends and used to be a card carrying Teamster myself so unionism holds a special place for me. A very close friend who I consider my brother is a ranking individual with IBEW wouldn't talk to me for 2 weeks after I bought my first Japanese auto 10 years ago. We can joke about it now, but it took a long time for him to get over it.

Its easy to find case studies on how much value unions have brought thier workers, but you can find just as many cases where Unions priced themselves out of work and forced the work out of CONUS - who won that contest?

Anyways, and keeping this volatile subject simple - I believe Unions have a place in our workplace if only to keep Management in check; but not at the cost of harboring a lazy workforce.

I don't envision making any more comments on this subject.

 

[quote author=bulabula link=board=10;threadid=18526;start=0#msg173864 date=1061217220]
I sometimes wonder if Mexstan likes to incite emotions here with the "sky is falling - WAKE UP U.S.!!" comments and these types of threads?
I[/quote]


;D ;D ;D ;D Ain't debates wonderful??

 

The temperatute of this one is still pretty cool but I will be watching the gauge.

 

my opinion ...........small companies, there's no need for unions the employer usueally knows all the employee's and treats em fair


big companies unions are a must ..........sure the senoiraty thing kinda sucks but how you gonna do it

I've seen a couple place where they promote on compitence ..........that's a joke then it becomes who you know and who your drinkin buddies are cause the boss's always seem to promote their friends first............

 

I just repaired a boiler with a 3/4 threaded union... So Unions are my Friends!!!