[quote author=RamlovingVet link=board=10;threadid=18526;start=0#msg173907 date=1061221246]
I just repaired a boiler with a 3/4 threaded union...
[/quote]

Good one.

 

Guess I'll jump in with both feet....

I look at two sides of this issue. As a firefighter, the union has it's place. Firing an under performing civil servant is difficult, union notwithstanding, so from that respect, it's a moot point. As far as wages and working conditions, the union is necessary. Our department is a state department, one of the lowest paid departments in the state. Thanks to the efforts of the union, we are achieving parity with the average fire department in the state.

As a safety manager, I see it the other way. As an example, my current project is governed by a Project Labor Agreement (PLA). This PLA requires that all contractors, union and open shop, sign a letter of assent stating that they will comply with the PLA. The PLA requires that non union contractor employees pay union dues, and the employer pays all fringes (medical, disability, vaction, etc.) directly to the respective union. In addition, contractors can only use core employees (have to be on the payroll for 60 of the preceding 100 days) and any other required labor must be hired out of the hall.

What really gets me about this is the employee has to pay union dues but gets no benefit from the union. In addition, the union hands forced on the contractor are the ones that none of the union contractors wanted. If they were good, they'd be working. Most often these guys that are sent out to work for open shop contractors are union organizers who just stir up more crap when they get on a job.

This PLA was implemented to guarantee "labor peace". In return for this PLA, the unions have agreed not to picket the non union contractors. What this amounts to is legalized extortion.

I agree, there is a time and place for the unions, but the US unions have it backwards. In Europe, (Alpine, weigh in on this if you know) most of the work is union, so if you want to work a union job, you have to be a union member. But as a union member, you can work non-union without being penalized. Seems unfair that even if the unions here can't find you work, they can still penalize you for working non union.

My best friend is a union carpenter in Vegas. Sounds to me like they don't do squat for him except set his wages, retirement and benefits. He still has to hustle his own work, and the BA's do nothing for him if he has a legitimate grievance. I have non-union hands working prevailing wage jobs that are doing every bit as good as union hands and don't put up with the BS.

At least in construction, I look at it this way. Take for instance Brown & Root, a company you Texans will be familiar with. The unions have tried for years to organize B&R hands, it happened on the job I did for them. It hasn't happened. Why? Because B&R takes care of their people. It's not uncommon to see folks getting 15, 20, 25 year pins on a B&R job. My company is pretty close to the same size as KBR, and we've had the same experience on our petrochem side.

IMO, bottom line is, if a company takes care of its' people, the union isn't necessary. If it doesn't, chances are it's not going to survive long enough for the union to make a difference, or it's going to move out of the country.

 

 

Yikes, touchy subject.

Personally I think their time has past. They had a real place at one time, but now they are brining us to our knees. WHy do you suppose everything is made in Mexico, China and so on.

But, I have also, never belonged to one.

2 cents

 

I worked in a unionized job for several years, seeing complete incompetance rewarded due to "time served" wore thin after awhile. I now feel that if a company is treating me so bad that I need a union to protect me, maybe I should not waste another day working for that company. Screw 'em I was looking for a job when I found this one. So I guess unions (IMHO) were a good idea in the coal mines of yesteryear, but do little now but make for poor civil servants.

 

Ummmmm.........to maximize profits & high level corporate bonuses by using the cheapest workforce possible where there are no labor or safety regulations maybe?

How much of those cost savings do you think are passed on to the consumer?

 

I would wonder to what end this conversation is serving? Debate? If you haven't ever been in a union, you're just on the sidelines. This ranks right up there with tranny or oil wars. Texas and many other states are right to work states and also have some of the lowest wages in the nation. You get what you pay for. This talk about, well I know some who can't hack it and are just sliding along and I saw someone get his feathers ruffled because he was shopping work, well guess what, it happens and it's life. I've seen non-union shops treat their workers with little respect or care for their well-being. The good shops are few and far between because it's cut throat work nowadays. I've worked both sides of the fence in my trade, electrical. I've had more non union shops stiff me for benefits, paychecks and no notice layoffs than union shops. Say what you want, unless you've been there, all you have is second hand knowledge and all it amounts to is an opinion. We have an executive board we are accountable to. Slackers are taken care of because we know that contracts are renewed based on performance. When your work place changes frequently because we're in new construction, employers have the right to turn you at the gate if your prior work history is known to be unsatisfactory. The thing I find really interesting that those have either never been in a union or plan to be or have violated some major worksite rule and were discharged because of that seem to have the strongest opinions about something they know little about. Unions have outlived their usefullness? Few of you realize that thanks to the IBEW (International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers) enforcement of electrical standards and practices are constantly observed, both on the local and state levels. On too many occasions, we've seen many non-union shops cut corners on the jobs, like substituting wire sizes for lessor adequate sizing, not using the proper conduit race method, or inadequate grounding. The results of these actions could easily result in at the very least a hazardous condition and at the most, death. All in the name of a bigger profit margin, for whom, the companies of course, not the individual worker, whether he or she is union or nonunion. At least with a union, I have someone who will step forward when the employer decides to not back his paychecks, forces workers to bypass safety standards and take shortcuts. I've seen the electrical standards that are being enforced in Mexico. Definitely not up to our safe standards.

Off the soap box.

 

Well, I guess it is my turn. Three years ago I was making $13.50 an hour. Now, I am a licenced journyman plumber, a licenced journyman pipefitter, state certified backflow tester, and hold a power limited technician licence (electrical). This fall or winter I plan on becoming a certified welder and get certified for installing piping for medical gasses. All this schooling has been provided to me for $27 a month. I am classified as a journyman with the United Association of Plumbers and Steamfitters and my rate of pay is now $28.45. Is it worth it? YOU BET. FYI- in Minnesota if you do not go through an apprentice program you can expect to take the Mn plumbers test 3 to 5 times before you pass. The state average is about 17% pass rate. Our hall has a 78% pass rate. You must also realize that since we enjoy the better pay we do spend more money in the in the area for all sorts of goods.

 

Well, I could get really long winded on this one, i'll try to keep it short.
I am a member of the Teamsters, I have seen my share of slackers.
I still believe in the old phrase "an honest day's work for an honest day's pay"
I do not appreciate those who think just because they are in a union they are protected and therefore do not pull their weight.
In these here parts, if you don't do what's expected of you, you will be sitting back home waiting for the phone to ring.
We make a good wage, have excellent benefits, and a very good retirement plan.
If you take pride in what you do, do it well, you will be recognized by all, and hopefully those around you will follow your example.
On the down side, there are the seniority list issues that make it hard for someone just starting out to become established with one company. Usually these people are the ones who fill in for those on leave, vacation, stress or, to fill a temporary need when things are busy.

Another negative thing is that the pay scale does not discern between the hard workers and those who are just a body there to put in their time.

Personally I could take them or leave them. At least I make a decent living doing what I do. I could make the same money if I worked non-union, but I do not think I could get all the benefits, retirement, if I was not in the union.

steps off the soapbox.

Rich

 

I am suprised that this hasn't gotten hot enough to lock yet. I work for a union contractor and have had opportunity to work with union contactors all over the country. One thing that seems to be consistent is that the lower the local number the less likely you are to get "a days work for a days pay". Has anyone else noticed this?

 

I've been watching it real close with the locks standing by. So far, it has been real civil or at least I think so. It's like anything else, there's good and bad in most anything.

I was union a long time ago but when I went to management, there is no union representation here. I get treated very well I think and make an excellent wage and have good benefits but my raises are based on my performance totally. When it comes time for the union guys raises, they all get the same whether they are go getters or duds. Makes no real difference to me but some people would get over on their fellow workers like that and get away with it and nothing is done to better their performance. I guess that is partly managements fault though too.

Keep up the good work guys, so far so good.

DD4X4

 

Gentlemen, Please do not overlook corporate greed as a reason for our work going elsewhere. Can't blame it all on the unions.
The two trucks in my sig., one was made in the U.S., and the other was made in Mexico. Both trucks cost the same, where did the profit go on the one that was supposed to cost less to build ???

 

TXRAM2, actually the hourly wage difference between the Mexican wages and the US wages is narrowing fast, particularly along the border. My management friends in the manufacturing sector tell me that some of them are considering relocating to China and other countries mainly because the Mexican unions keep on pushing for higher and higher wages and benefits. Some have closed shop and moved already directly because of the unions. They moved to Mexico because the wages etc were cheaper initially but it is not such a good option any more. Just last week the manager of one of the local business parks told me that he was worried that they were going to lose more companies to other countries. The US and European companies here pay better than average local wages but the unions still want more and more. Everyone I talk to here in management has the same tale of woe. They all complain about being squeezed by the unions. One company president I know last month fired the entire staff except for two and is starting all over again. He told me that he got fed up with unreasonable demands from the staff. If the increased demands continue they can no longer compete and will close shop or move to China. More and more companies are going overseas to try and compete. For example, just take a look at a large chunk of your credit card processing. Know where it is processed electronically? Nigeria. Water control of the Thames river by London is believe it or not controlled from China. (at least I think it was China) Reason in each case? Cheaper labour. Exploitation? Maybe. Maybe not. What would you do if you were the owner of a company trying to make a buck? How do you explain to the shareholders that the profits are low if more profits can be made by moving to another country? Corporate greed? Maybe, but also remember, no company is in business for charity. The bottom line is to make money. The more the better.

 

Mexstan you have a valid point however,

When everyone is out of work 'cuz all their jobs went overseas to maximize profits,.......who's left to buy the dang widget that the corporation builds? ???

My union wages don't even keep with inflation. :-[

In the 22 years I've been a Union member, we have never gone on strike because of pay increases.
This time it's the same.
It has always been to protect the benefits that the company was trying to take away.

Jumping off of soapbox before DieselDude smacks me with a lock.

 

Shovelhead, I agree. So who is right and who is wrong? Something like being caught between a rock and a hard place? Where on earth (pun intended) is the middle ground? How do you keep everybody happy? Where is the balance? I sure don't know. Does anybody?