Good Job people on keeping a tough debate on even friendly ground, there is a great deal of emotion all over the world on this subject and unfortunately it is not always debated as eloquently as this.<br><br> From an old war horse who hates to see the bullets start flying, I have to agree that it is time to do something. A lot of this debate is new for a great many people and they are losing site of the fact that this is a decade old problem.<br><br> If you took this attitude in raising a child, continually giving one more chance, rather than saying &quot;enough is enough!&quot; when they are misbehaving, the child would be fully grown and out of the nest, never having learned right from wrong.<br><br> Somewhere you have to set a limit to the number of times you will turn a blind eye to the temper tantrums, and remove the toy's that the toddlers are fighting over.<br><br> I know that is a very simple analogy, but somehow I feel it fits in this case. We can give Saddam another 10 years to thumb his nose at the UN and complete his weapons program. then we can all sit and watch our television screens as half of the middle east burns.<br><br> Make no mistake, this man will use his arsenal given the opportunity, that isn't an opinion, rather a proven fact. He has used every weapon he could already against his own people, and his close neighbors.<br><br> If the UN feels they can't financially back the fight against this tyrant, so be it. No matter what anybody claims to be the motivating factor for the hesitation, you can be assured the bottom line is money.<br><br> Why pay a share to stop this lunatic, when you can sit on the sidelines and scoff at the idea long enough that somebody else takes care of your business. This is nothing new to the UN, we have seen it time and time again.<br><br> I for one feel if the US has to take care of the world's problems on her own, then let's get the heck out of the UN and put our money somewhere wisely, where it can be used to guarantee a safer world to live in. <br><br> The european countries forget very easily that they would not even be alive had it not been for the sacrifices of American blood on their soil. Hitler was a bane on humanity and had to be removed, the only difference with Saddam is he is temporarily still inside his own borders.<br><br> That not being any coincidence to the large amount of effort the US led coalition obtained in 1990. Am I the only one who see's that as soon as the UN took over the duties in Iraq, all forward progress came to a halt?<br><br> The UN has allowed this maniac to continue his weapons programs almost unabated, if there is a responsibility for any governing body to clean up the mess it is obviously the UN. I for one have no confidence in the UN doing anything to resolve the matter.<br><br> Diplomacy is a wonderful thing, it is played similar to poker. Sooner or later you either have to raise the bet, or you call the bluff. <br><br> 10 years is a long time to hold an empty hand at any game.

 

TJinTX: Since I have been in Croatia, Bosnia and some other places, I :'( must second your notion on blood thirsty fanatics. They are around. I still would not say particularly in Europe. Yes Europe has its fair share of them, but in my experience they are about everywhere. <br>I think that the lack of linguists is one thing, and a massive lack of flexibilty in the behaviour of US &quot;representatives&quot; is another problem. I had lots of contact with people from the peace corps and from US delegations in Senegal, Mali and Burkina Faso. You could tell these types again and again that there are some rules about mosques that are to be followed. ( Like dress code, etc) <br>You tell them, and I think my english is good enough to make my point in that case, and off they go. The same day I ad to discuss with them and some very angry muslims that the group went into a mosque during prayer, did not take their shoes off, and two ladies who also entered the mosque were wearing short jeans and bikini tops. <br>The US folks complained to me about these uncivilized, primitive ( jadda jadda ) muslims, who had bboed them out of the mosque. One had even thrown a shoe at them ! <br>Since people like them do represent the US in the eyes of a population you can imagine that their impression on these people will lead to anti americanism, and proverbs like &quot; Europe is culture, America is only civilisation... &quot;<br>About political correctness. I think that this is somewhat bs with rose perfume. But since this was the accepted protocol I think that it was not wise to change the lingo just at this moment. <br>And about calling things as they are. Before this a statesman would have said that something had a negative olfactory property. Now he says this same thing stinks. Still the same message..... but the new way of saying it leads to irritation. <br>And one source of anti americanism is envy. Plain old envy. I noticed this because there is a lot of anti everyoneelseism going on everywhere, but especially where people are considering themselves poorer. <br><br>AlpineRAM <br>

 

AlpineRAM, you are correct that fanaticism is world wide, and not overly concentrated in Europe. The European theater was my area of operation, primarily, so terrorism there just sort of stuck out in my mind. I do not forget, nor discount, the atrocities that occur throughout Africa, South America, etc.<br><br>Regarding the people that represent America overseas, they can be our worst enemies. I do know that we Americans have a strange (and universally annoying) tendency to think that our way is the best and only way. Case in point is that we travel to foreign countries and expect to find everyone speaking English. : That is truly arrogant, and we are very, very guilty of it. Misbehaving, however, by any visitor in ANY foreign country is inexcusable. No country should send official representatives abroad without in-depth training on cultural sensitivities. It happens in America, as well.<br><br>I've had to think carefully about your statement regarding political correctness, and whether it was wise to change it. The conclusion I've come to is that you and I will have to respectfully disagree on that point. ;D Maybe it's the Texan in me, but I've always believed in saying what you mean, and meaning what you say. The chips can fall where they may.<br><br>Yes, envy is a big source of anti-Americanism. I read somewhere that the litmus test of a country is the ratio of people trying to get in versus those trying to leave. Although we are not perfect, our number are pretty good! ;D<br><br><br><br>

 

TJinTX: I have met a lot of american people who were really good in travelling and adapting to the countries they visited. But, IMO a universal constant, the fools were the loudest and were noticed. All those who behaved well are forgotten when you meet the real (insert a Texan ;D word for jerk here ) .<br>The point about PC I wanted to point out is not whether PC is necessary, positive, annoying or whatever. Since I am in the computer business I just compared this change in the way of communication with the restructuring of a network. I just think that the change of protocol right now is not wise. <br>I assume that if we could leave the diplomatic PC aside, there would be a chance that the average citizen would actually understand what the heck is going on in the world. <br><br>Top:<br>As I stated I am really not supporting Saddam. The things I questioned are the hows and whens etc. <br>I think we do agree that the situation with Iraq is to be changed. <br>The points I try to bring around is that in my view there are some glitches in the way the US is pursuing the goal. Over here we do not have any information about what should be after the military operation. <br>And, to defend the European position a bit: If there is no real solution, clearing up the aftermath of this war, Europe will suffer the strongest. (Simply because the refugees will come here). <br><br>I do not think that the European countries have forgotten the toll the US has paid in liberating us. I am very aware of the fact that in the first place we were liberated, and then there was the Marshal plan. This plan was what made us live then. <br>One of my concerns is that I do not know of anything resembling a Marshal plan for after this war. As I see it it's just demolishion of the regime and then.... what ?<br><br>About the USA leaving the UN and taking things in their own hand. <br>Sorry to say that, but this can not work. Any time the US would want to do anything like now it would be considered as a unilateral warfare. <br>And this is something that in a time where there are so many means of mass destruction would pose a risk that was unbearable. <br><br>AlpineRAM

 

AlpineRAM, there has always been, and probably always will be a hue and cry in this country to pull out of the UN, NATO, etc. Many Americans view the relationship between America and UN member countries as being parasitical, not symbiotic. In other words, we take the risk and they reap the rewards. Many feel that way now in regards to Iraq. Our pilots, along with the British, are flying 24 hour operations over north and south Iraq to protect the minorities living there, in support of UN mandates. Remember, this is a UN mandate, not US.<br><br>Top, I don't believe that we can pull out of the UN now, or in the near future. I'd like to, but I don't see it happening. I do think, however, that when we as a nation are threatened, or attacked, we will take whatever measures are necessary to protect ourselves, even if those measures do not line up with what the UN member nations think is best.<br><br>Your point about the Marshal plan is very valid, AlpineRAM. I, like you, have never seen that kind of plan in regards to Iraq. The United States has failed miserably in the past at nation building. Just look at Iran, Libya, Panama, and well, the list goes on. I hope we do a better job in Iraq, and I'm sure that we can with a lot of help from our European friends ;D !<br><br>

 

TJinTX: I really value your input on this topic. One of the great advantages of the internet is that I can get more information than what is written in the newspapers over here. I do not want to bash them, but still another source is another source.<br>Hopefully we can continue this discussion on saturday. ( Gotta leave the country for tomorrow.)<br><br>My best wishes!<br>AlpineRAM

 

Thank you, AlpineRAM. I also value your opinion, and I think that most folks here do. And yes, most newspapers have a biased viewpoint. Ours are mostly far-left-leaning liberals . Have a great trip, be safe, and I look forward to hearing from you when you get back.

 

Alpine: i also value your opinion and REALLY enjoy hearing the views of &quot;common folk&quot; in Europe. I love the fact that i can read this thread and not have to sift through a bunch of BS-namecalling to get any real value out of the discussion. O ya and one other thing, i live in KY and love it, but MAN i sure do love you Texans

 

AlpineRAM has shown an unusual ability to have a discussion about different points of view and keep it civil. I've seen him do this on other boards, as well, and it's been kinda fun talking with him.<br><br>You know, cfm3110, it's interesting to see peoples faces when you introduce yourself and tell them you're from Texas. They either smile real big and say &quot;I could tell&quot;, or they . Either way tickles me

 

jfpointer, was there too, 2nd Brigade, 1st Armor Div. <br><br>As for my inerpretation of radar painting, If I held a gun to a mans head and didn't pull the trigger, I would go to jail.<br><br>Top you listening to PRI? They use the grounding a child analogy too.<br><br>As far as a post war government plan, they should be directing their energy to that more than figuring how to delay us. It may be simplifying a bit, but which is the lesser evil? Refugees, or waiting him out as he gets stronger and be able to inflict more damage?<br><br>Flights over your country? I agree, it's arrogant. If it's policy, it needs to change. Hard to tell the differance sometimes I'm sure between policy and some bad eggs. The bigger an agency, the harder to weed out the bad ones. When I was in the gulf, they started finding some prisoners with fresh little wounds. They surveyed the situation and found a private with bayonet was poking them trying to provoke something. Last I knew he was still being gaurded aw a prisoner when we left.<br><br>Yeah, I can be sarcastic, but it's not directed to you personally Alpine, I'm enjoying this thread. I'm headed out now and won't be back til Teusday. <br><br>See ya guys!

 

Man everybody is leaving :'( :'( :'(

 

Hehe.. AlpineRAM is back ;D<br><br>I really appreciate this site because here we can discuss rather hot topics with a cool mind. I learned the hard way that in a discussion you can got the path of destructive argumentation where you pick apart your opponents by dissecting their sentences and turning around their meanings.Being sarcastic is one of the methods in this kind of discussion. A bit of trivia: The word sarcasm comes from the greek sarx meaning flesh. Sarcasm derives from flesh cutting. <br> The outcome will be something between the rest of the discussion leaving and shouting, namecalling and armed violence depending on the participants. <br>I prefer the other way of getting into topics. First read carefully what everybody says, and then if something remained unclear ask for explanations. <br>When you understand what the others say think about it and then form and express your opinion. If possible state the information and sources of your opinion, and your thoughts that made you reach your conclusion. <br>This leaves you wide open for attacks from people preferring the aggressive way of discussion- but in a good discussion you will be able to learn much more this way. <br>Sometimes I think that especially on the internet most people do not want to discuss, but to impose their opinions on the whole world. <br>( I assume this is the case because the internet was invented by Al Gore ;D )<br>To get back on topic:<br><br>Today I read that the US plans to administer the post war Iraq itself, and to use a lot of the existing administrative structure that is there, after removing the Baath party members. I would like to know whether this information is valid or not. <br><br>About the political orientation of newspapers: I think that this is something where the whole relativistic theory could have been proven much earlier . As Johnny Cash sings: The one on the left is on the right. <br><br>As on radar painting: REdleg says that if he held a gun to the head of somebody without pulling the trigger he'd go in jail. <br>In my opinion there is a very fine line there. If you walked around with a gun in your hand , not pointing it at anybody in general this would be considered a massively offensive behaviour over here. That's IMHO what makes these situations difficult. The USA is strolling around in the mediterranean and the various gulfs with some carrier groups, submarines and other niceties. They use radar to look into Iraq. Just to play the devils advocate: If you radar paint me then I want to assure who you are, so I do activate my radar... you send a standard ARM against my radar, I send a GAM against your plane. I think that's something called escalation. <br><br>A comment about conduct against POWs: I think that a country like the US has to be very correct in this, because the conduct against POWs represents the values you stand and fight for. The US would betray itself if it did tolerate such behaviour. Naturally you can't swear to the moral integrity of every person in a whole army under each possible situation. But if these cases are handled correctly it shows that the basic structures are OK.<br><br>AlpineRAM

 

Good morning, gentlemen. AlpineRAM, I'm glad to see that you made your trip safely. I'm just now getting back on the 'net. I, like you, work in the IT industry, and I generally try to stay away from computers on the weekend ;D !<br><br>I agree with your assesment of discussions and/or arguments. Trying to impose one's opinion on someone else nearly always leads to folks getting mad, or getting their feelings hurt. The conversation tends to end with &quot;Oh, yeah?? Well, my brother can whip your brother...&quot;, or something that is equally stupid...<br><br><br>OK, back on topic...You asked whether the US plans on administering an interim military government in post-war Iraq. My understanding from the US media is that the US has said that. Now, as I am not privy anymore to intelligence or operational information, I truly do not know what the facts are. I'm not sure that I like that idea, but it may have merit. On the one hand, I haven't seen or heard how long the government expects to exist before giving way to a democratically elected one. That bothers me. On the other hand, that kind of &quot;structure&quot; worked out pretty well in Japan, from a strategic point of view, both for the Japanese and the US. Don't get me wrong, I do realize how tough post-war Japan was for a while, but one must think strategic as opposed to tactical.<br><br>AlpineRAM, there are many different types of radars in use by militaries around the world. The ones being used by Iraq in the no-fly zones are either Target Tracking/Acquisition (TT/TA) or Fire Control (FC). These radars are directly linked to anti-aircraft weapons, be it AAA or SAM's. In either case, pilots receive an indication on their Radar Warning Receivers that basically tells them that they are in imminent danger. Having been on aircraft that have been targeted by these type of radars, I can assure you that the &quot;pucker factor&quot; increases dramatically ! The bottom line, in my mind, is that by activating these types of radars and directing them towards coalition aircraft, Iraq is in direct defiance (and material breach, I might add) of UN mandates. This is not ambiguous, nor a judgement call, for anyone that has ever been in the military. Iraq understands this, as do all of members on the UN security council. The mandate clearly states that &quot;hostile acts&quot; by Iraq against coalition forces that are enforcing UN mandates is a material breach of the resolutions.<br><br>My opinion on POW's are the same as yours. The Geneva Convention articles on treatment of POW's should be the minimum afforded POW's. Unfortunately, as history has shown, all countries do not abide by the rules of war, so to speak. Seeing the abused and dismembered bodies of our brave soldiers/sailors/airmen/marines being paraded through the streets of a foreign nation on television (and in person) sure makes we want to forget that we signed up to the Geneva Convention, but I have nothing but the utmost faith that the US will treat any and all POW's exactly the same way that we expect foreign nations to treat US POW's. Treatment of POW's is one thing that differentiates civilized countries from, well, uncivilized countries.<br><br>

 

Good Day Gentlemen,<br> Anyone out there that considers themselves to be a fair debater, should watch Alpine Ram in action. He is an intelligent and savvy individual in his method of debate. <br><br> Clearly he understands the value of discussion in a manner not intended to aggravate the situation, but rather to only cast light on the facts of the issues. I would not debate him on any subject where the loser buys the beer, as there would be a good chance I would be paying his bar tab for awhile <br><br> Thanks again guys for keeping it civil, we all value the right to have differing opinions on the subject and by allowing these posts to go on, each of us can get a little insight as to what our neighbors across the big pond are feeling.<br><br> While it can often seem there is only one true way to look at something, the effects of living in a different culture can show that things are not always as clear as you think.<br><br> We are very fortunate to have a person such as AlpineRam here willing to share his views, even knowing that much of what he says will not be understood, or quickly dismissed because it may not be a popular view here in this country.<br><br> Great job fellow DTR members, our interest in our trucks can also bring us closer together in other ways when we allow it to do so. Having been involved in many &quot;scuffles&quot; spanning the globe, I can tell you that we are all a great deal more alike than we realize, and this world gets smaller everyday.<br><br> We are closer to being &quot;Brothers&quot; than many of us realize and I am glad that this forum, intended to share information about our CTD's, can also bring us great insight and knowledge about the differences in our cultures, and how life's events can impact us all so much differently.<br><br>Lary

 

Yup, you're right about AlpineRAM, Top. I'm afeared that my beer budget would be busted if I had to pay for losing debates with him....One interesting thing about this thread to me is that the Texan/American in me wants to holler out that we should kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out, but AlpineRAMs calm, cool, and considered opinion kinda puts a bucket of water on the fire, so to speak...Now, I'm not saying that I've changed my mind about killing part <br><br>Teddy