Justwannabeme

yup, good read, good post IROC- thanks!

I guess lovable people like to have 'Evil kneival' moments lol
glad you are still around to impress others, Fiver, Bark, Scotty,Coug, even Madhatter (age DOES NOT matter)!

been there, done that (creatively I might add per my friends and doctors) haven't been to church in 25 years but talk to God and my departed parents every night. nice to stare at the stars and reflect on the day..did i do something productive? was i fair? set a good example or just be kind?

i have listened to criminals prior to their demise; interesting to hear they wished for a solid male figure for guidance/strength to resist crime/courage to say I love you/I am sorry to their moms...

it is NEVER the workplace who loves you or buries you, choose your time appropriately- you cannot get it back.
smile at nothing each day, just to remember the Gift you have recieved

Tallguy67

Along this line, my maternal grandfather was a huge influence in my life until he died 10 yrs ago. At about 14 yrs of age I asked him about stress and a bunch of life stuff. He gave me some advice that was so simple, I can remember it like we spoke yesterday. His advice was this 'Every day, treat every person you meet the absolute best you can. If you do that you can look yourself in the mirror every night just before you go to bed and have a clear conscience and be proud of who you see looking back'.
I may not be perfect at achieving his standard but there aren't many days I go to sleep feeling guilty about how I have treated someone and the amazing thing is that, by and large, it seems to get paid back. There a butt-heads in the world but when I look at the people I interact with on a regular basis, they are a pretty good lot. Heck, so far the group I have run into on this site even fit into that category.

Mexstan

irocpractice, thank you for posting this. I took my time answering it because I wanted the time to reflect on my own life. All those points apply to me. Told my two sons a few years ago how deeply I regret spending so much time at work while they were growing up. I was dumb, stupid and a few more harsh words I could call myself, but looking back now I know all too well how I so foolishly sacrificed the irreplaceable time with my sons and my wife, thinking I was doing good by working overtime and earning more money. How foolish we can be at times! Take foolish and then go the next few steps. That was me! Don't know about y'all, but I will probably beat many of you for the first prize of doing things very wrong with my wife and my kids, not to mention in my own life. Dumb and dumber all applied to me.

Have I grown older and wiser? Older for sure, but not necessarily wiser. However, I now can look back and recognize with deep regret so many of the things I did so very wrong and paid for. What hurts more is not the wrong I did to myself in depriving my family of my time, but the damage I so unwittingly did to my friends and family. It's true, what goes around, comes around.

I already knew Bob's story and can emphasize with him that unless you are friends with God and in particular have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, that perhaps you should take a closer look at that aspect of your life. Yes, I know that many of you reading this are atheists or unbelievers of some sort, but let me ask you a question. What if you were in Bob's situation, except that you died? Are you prepared to be wrong and wake up dead on the wrong side of God? Nobody knows when they will die or how fast death will overtake them, but too many of us don't consider tomorrow or the fact we can die in the next two minutes. There ain't no going back for a second chance once you do die. Game over, check and mate! Eternity is for ever, so where do YOU choose to spend it?

As for me, I never was too concerned about tomorrow, but after surviving too many incidents that left me wondering why I was allowed to still be in one piece, have made the conscious decision to make Jesus Christ the head of my life. Now I am ready to die peacefully at any time. Of course, there are still the regrets for wasted moments and times from the past, but have asked for forgiveness from the people I have hurt. That part was not easy, but so very liberating.

God has a plan for my turned around life. I have seen and lived some of it already, but somehow know there is lots more to come and am very excited about this. If it is His plan, then I want in and know with absolute certainty that it is designed for my good. Maybe I have got a tiny bit wiser, because now I know my priorities are in the correct order. They were out of whack for too many years. What about your priorities? Do they require changing?

chaikwa

Well for myself, I'm not an atheist. I believe in God. What I question is what's written about Him. He's supposed to be an all loving, all forgiving God, yet we have to 'accept' Him and be saved or we'll be going to hell. That doesn't sound all that forgiving to me. There are too many contradictions in the writings of the Bible for all of it to be true. But the notion that He has a plan for each of us is valid I think, tho I cannot for the life of me figure out what that might be for me except that maybe He will make an example of me!

Mexstan

He really is an all loving God, BUT, He has laid down some firm rules for us to follow. When we do not follow them, He punishes.
Sorry, disagree with you that there are ANY contradictions in the Bible. name one or two or three.

The above is very, very brief, but will go into more detail if anybody wants me to. Anybody else want to chime in here?

On edit.
Just thought about something. Jeremiah 29:11 says For I know the plans I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.'

This is what God wants for all of us, but we stupidly get in the way with our stubbornness, disbelief and sundry other things that forces God to turn his face and favor from us.

Justwannabeme

got ya covered Stan,

believers never sweat the details. human forgiveness is liberating; God's forgiveness is life saving.

that old term "Made a believer outta me" usually follows the mental check that you are still alive after a life altering trauma.


Thank you for posting Stan, i have been regretting spending too much time on worthless things instead of my son as well.....I know that 'now' is never too late to tell those folks their worth to you and your continued current presence/support.

a clink of the cup to all readers who have been through this <clink>

Hvytrkmech

Eric, thanks for sharing the story. It shows the fallibility of human nature and how we always have an opportunity to make a choice. Unfortunately in most cases it is not until we are faced with death that we acknowledge and own our mistakes. As far as God being my friend I would say no, God is the creator and I am one of his creations, therefore, in my beliefs, I can never be equal to Him, He is perfect, I am not. I will Honor him by humbly accepting the challenges along the path that He has laid before me. It has never been easy.

Very moving and powerful story Bob, you to Scotty.

12valve@heart

Scott,

I don't want to "pile on" but I do want to encourage you that, since you do believe in God, you take the time to actively seek out and learn more about Him. He wants to be known by us and the Bible tells us several times that if we seek Him with our whole hearts, we will find Him. There is nothing wrong in having questions as long as we are willing to seek the true answers. (Questions that we are not willing to seek the true answers to become excuses to support our preconceived beliefs.)

For myself, this is a time of change. My job of 15+ years that I had believed I was going to retire from suddenly didn't want me and I find myself laid off and wondering what I'm going to do next. I know that as I look for a different job, that I need to make some changes in priorities including spending more time focusing on my relationship with God. I don't get to church as often as I need to and I don't spend as much time as I should in communicating with God. I'm blessed in that I'm receiving a severance package that buys me a bit of time before I have to be producing income again but posts like this one from IROC help remind me that no job is worth getting my priorities out of order.

I could go on (and I might do that later on) but for now I'll close by thanking all of you who posted before me for the reminder that we need to live our lives NOW in a way that won't cause regrets LATER - both in this life and in eternity.

FiverBob

Scott,

Let me reply to your comments about God being kind and good and I think you know I do not do this to be argumentative - - OK? Many would like to believe that God is good and He would not punish His creation is one that is used by many who call themselves ministers and preach in the pulpits of churches. I think all of us would love to believe that. It relieves us of any responsibility on our part to do just what you suggest - - that of finding REALLY who He is and what He truly desires us to be. God is good, He created us for a reason - - to have a relationship with us - - created us with the ability to choose for ourselves, make our own decisions as to how we would respond to Him. A good example of the opposite of this position could be one of a boss who has the ability to fire you if you do not be nice to him and do everything he tells you to do including be his close friend. God made us with the ability to choose to know Him, really know Him to the point you make Him a part of your life. It is then you find His path He would like you follow. It is then we find true joy, not a fictious, pumped up high that we call fun. It is a deep friendship that endures all the normal ups and downs of life - - He is there with us to support, encourage and help in both the fun parts and bad parts of life. If we chose His way and accept that friendship and His son that He offers, our life is definitely different and the rewards are great. Someday we will meet Him to His face - - I want to know Him really good long before that day occurs. I truly believe He guides me daily - - not some super spiritual "woo woo" thing that can scare off people who do not understand that statement, rather the knowledge and inward feeling of a God who cares and loves me. It is knowledge and assurance that I have accepted the work of His son for my life. Does it mean everything is peaches and cream - - absolutely not. I still live on earth and exist in a human body and am subject to all the ills and adversities that can bring along, but I know He is with me, living in me, and giving be strength and guidiing me thru those times.

As for the Bible having discrepancies, some would try to pick apart some possible little differences like a name or place that might be different in one writer's description from another. Most of these are due to translation differences. Besides, every person who views an event sees it from a different position and will relate what they see. The accuracy of the Bible in predicting coming events has been amazing - - events that we can see written many, even thousands, of years before the event happened. Why should I not believe it is right on with things yet to come. Read the Bible and then read your paper - - I am driven many mornings after reading the paper or seeing something on TV to my Bible to find something I remember about what just happened. Watch Iran, Syria, Russia and China and what is happening right now and read about it in your Bible, things written thousands of years ago happening right now. Read about the US in the Bible and realize what is happening to us right now, predicted in the Bible thousands of years ago. We are finding so many things in many parts of the world that were not known before, but recorded in the Bible. This can all be scary, but exciting to the believer.

I am so glad, at this time in history, that I can call God my best friend.

Bob

chaikwa

First of all, I want to thank all of you for your replies. I don't feel that ANY of you are being 'argumentative' or 'piling on'. Not at all. In ANY way. As small as it may be, this is one thing that I believe God has had a hand in, in my life; my being here with all of you and the ability for us to have discussions like this and be friends. Even tho most of us have not met each other, I cannot possibly explain to any of you how much it means to me to be able to talk to each of you every day. I might be able to delve into an explanatory dialog if we were face to face, but not here on a forum like this. Just suffice it to say that I am very thankful to know people like all of you.

Anyway...

Stan, please don't be sorry that you disagree with me, or anyone. Disagreement is what makes for interesting and informative discussions, especially from people like you and others here that actually know what they're talking about! I, obviously, have not read the Bible in its' entirety. And it's REALLY possible that what I HAVE read, I have misinterpreted. But one of the biggest things that I view as a contradiction is the statement that he is an all loving, all forgiving God. Now this may not be the way it is actually stated in the Bible and hence my confusion, I don't know. But I have heard multitudes of people, religious and non-religious make reference to Him being the 'all loving, all forgiving'. And if that is so, why is it that children suffer so? What could any child have done to deserve the pain and suffering that so many of them are subjected to? I could make a list of examples a mile long, but the most recent example that comes to mind is those poor kids in Stamford Connecticut that died in the fire that consumed their home. What did they do to deserve that? I can understand some of the suffering that adults are subjected to, and in my mind, most adults bring on their own suffering thru their own actions. While they might not always be deserving of 'suffering', they still bring it on themselves. But not kids. They haven't been here long enough to have done anything 'sinful' that would warrant punishment. And some kids are born with painful and debilitating conditions that just make their life a practice in torture. What kind of loving God would create that or allow it to happen?

Like I said, I'm not questioning His existence, I'm a firm believer. No life altering trauma involved!

I guess that's what I am trying to do. I have always wanted some kind of explanation as to why these innocent kids are being punished with pain and suffering, and the closest I've ever come is the answer of "sometimes you just have to have faith and believe in what He's doing". I just can't wrap my mind around that concept even tho I've contemplated it for many, many years.

I'd like to discuss this with all of you some more. I have some beliefs that parallel those in the Bible and some that are not talked about there, but I'm not going to go spewing garbage that none of you want to hear, so we'll see where this goes and maybe some of my questions will be answered by default!

Lastly, thank you Bob for your explanations. While I did not quote your response, I read it... twice. There are ministers in this world that could take a lesson or two from you! Every time I read something like this from you, I feel more privileged to have met you and know you and your wife. Thank you!

FiverBob

Oh Scott - - I hardly know how to answer you - - you bluntly brought a tear to my eye and I had to say "Thank you God for those you bring into my life that become close and dear to me." You are one, in spite of our bantering back and forth and having fun, you are special.

I can understand your problem with God "being a kind and ALL FORGIVING" God and then wondering why kids have to suffer, why is there famine, why are there sunamis that kill sometimes thousands of people. To answer your question completely would take hours - - it becomes quite intricate. This was not God's intent at creation. It was not God who failed, it was man. With failure and rebellion comes punishment. Again, not His intent, but man bluntly blew it - - or should we say Eve did - - LOL. Well, it could be nice if we could blame everything on her, but I am afraid we all have failed in keeping the intent of God. Therefore, He had to provide a method, a way for us to regain His "kindness and all forgiving" and come back into His favor. Hence the birth of His son, his life, example of how God intended us to life, and finally the ultimate sacrifice for us of his life to pay for our forgiveness. Now it is back in our court - - will you accept the gift of the Son? We live in a world that is cursed due to rebellion of man and man himself was cursed. Again, not God's intent - - we blew it. Since we live in this world, we are bound by the laws and principles that surround us. Bad things can happen, sickness and disease occurs, the earth itself goes thru change sometimes creating mayhem, men become arrogant and defiant - - influence huge sections of mankind and we have wars. These are not the way God intended it to be. But we have a way to regain that friendship that God intended thru His son.

OK, I better quit. I could talk about this for hours. I know I am glad I know He leads and guides, and when things get tough, He is there with me even as He was during that heart attack. I mentioned I had an amazing experience while flat lined - - that is another story but I was on my way to where I had planned to go - - just didn't make it on that day. That experience only reinforced what I always knew. Having God abide in you makes the day much brighter and takes away the concern of what will happen when I do bite the big one. This is really fun discussing.

Bob

chaikwa

In spite of or because of! Thank you Bob, the feeling is the same from this end.


So could I when someone explains it like you are. I don't fully grasp what I need to yet, but there's a light there that I haven't seen before. I need time to 'digest' it.

Yes, I agree! Even without the insults and bickering!

FiverBob

You just digest it to your hearts content. And come to think about it - - that is what it will produce - - some heart's content. I am here when You need me.

In the meantime - - go get a hair cut and shave so I can see you. ...........;. (Oh me, I just couldn't resist, you rascal.)

PestBob

ps: in the meantime, where is my fresh ph00???? .....

12valve@heart

Let me start by saying that I understand and respect the fact that we have forum members who are atheists and others who are of other faiths and beliefs and even those who are Christians who may not agree with me and I'm not intending what I say to be an offense to anyone. I'm simply attempting to answer Scott's question to the best of my ability and in agreement with my beliefs. If we need to take this to PM, I'll be glad to do that but I also think that we all can interact in a civil manner that should not be offensive to anyone.

Scott,
Let me start out by thanking you for your openness. I'll be the first to acknowledge that there are some questions that are tough to answer and some of that is because of our finite understanding.

I think that FiverBob and I are on the same page and he has done a good job of addressing the fall of man. I'd like to take a stab as your comment "sometimes you just have to have faith and believe in what He's doing".

Let's start by looking at some basics because we can't answer some of the details unless we all start from the same basis. For the purpose of this discussion, I'm presuming that we are discussing the Judeo-Christian God referred to in the Bible. Given that basis, a few of the attributes/characteristics of God is that He is love, He is all knowing, and He is just. To use an example from the judicial system, if you knew a judge who you knew to be compassionate and just and you knew that it was impossible for him to make a wrong decision (I know, we just left the realm of human judges), could you trust his decisions even if they didn't make sense to you? This is the situation that I sometimes find myself in with God because I am not all-knowing and I am finite but I know that God knows everything, that He loves each one of us because He created us and above all, He is just and will always make the right decision. Why is there pain and suffering in this world? I wish I had an answer that we could understand but once you know God and His attributes, you can trust that His decisions are always right and just. By the same token, He does not isolate us from the consequences of the evil caused by the fall of mankind. Much of the pain and suffering that we see today is a direct (or indirect) result of the evil doings of mankind and the introduction of evil to the world and God often gets blamed for the evil that man does.

One final note about your statement about God being 'all loving, all forgiving'. God is willing and able to forgive anyone who is willing to repent but He will not forgive unless we ask so I consider "all forgiving" to be a bit of a misstatement about the God that we are discussing.

We could go much deeper but I think this is a good starting point. Hopefully it's helpful.

chaikwa

Thank you Bob.

Never. Not a chance. NO! My hair is a part of my religion. No, that's not totally accurate... it's a part of my beliefs. Yeah, that's better.

In the Keurig!

There is nothing that anyone can say to me, if they're sincere, that would offend me, (in regards to this discussion at least!). Outright attacks on my character or snide remarks that are meant to insult or hurt is what riles me! (No, no one has done that here, jus' sayin')

Wow. WOW! You just put that in a context that I can understand! No one's ever put it like that and it really DOES make me think in a way I haven't been able to before. That's pretty cool!

I don't know if I've gotten quite this far yet, but at least I'm on a clearer path! It just seems like sometimes there's someone watching over us that has a warped and sadistic sense of humor.

Yes, I can see that a little better now and I agree. Like I said earlier, I have a bit of a hard time interpreting the Bible and I haven't read it completely. What I know of it is from bits and pieces that I've read as curiosity dictated and from what people have told me.

To be honest, I was brought up in my real young life as a Protestant. As I got older and involved with a friend, I was introduced to the Indian aspects of religion, (the American, 'Native' kind of Indian, not the India people). Their religion very closely resembles that of what I was familiar with from my younger years. As close as I can remember, there's the same God, His Son and a LOT of the same stories that I remember reading and/or hearing about from the Bible. The Indian religion has some other thoughts and ideas, particularly about death and heaven, and how we should conduct ourselves to be true to ourselves and our God. And YES, hair does play a part in it, but not so much from a religious aspect. More a signification of strength and loyalty in general of the man that wears it.

This is a great discussion and I'm interested in hearing more.