Tapping Terrorists Phone Lines
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From: Battle Creek Michigan
Originally Posted by steven
Bush is one of these Lobster Tail eaters that has no idea what works in the field, as you put it. So why do we trust in this Lobster Tail Eater over the next. I guarantee if it was a demo, you would be saying "STOP, THIS IS WRONG". Buy the way, this "pansyfied liber law" as you call it, was made as the result of Nixon.
Finally, FISA or no FISA, doesnt stop Bush from doing his job. Bush failing to take the APPROPRIATE action is what Bush is doing wrong. Bush could have exercises his power before 9/11, but didnt. Why do we trust him to do it now? Bush's hands are not tied, never have been, that's just a smoke screen that ultra-fundamentalists like to promote. If a warhead is going to be detonated on one of our major cities, it has nothing to do with whether or not he complied with the FISA laws. That's just smoke again. He can gets the same intelligence whether or not he complies with FISA. 1.5 million will not die because Bush has a reporting requirement. B.S.
You may not "care" or appreciate the rights and freedoms that our founding fathers fought to obtain, but some of us do. Americans should not die because of red tape - like armor on vehicles, like fighting a war that was misrepresented to the American People, like not having sufficient personnel to cover their Edit, etcetera, but they are. American soldiers, sailors and marines are dying today because of the red tape and Lobster Eaters that you for some reason defend on the one hand and criticize on the other.
Regarding the WMD's, come on, you think if Bush can prove the WMD's got trucked out of Iraq he wouldnt be more than happy to show it. This guy is doing everything he can to prove the WMD's and cant. His approval ratings are in the toilet, anything he can do to better himself and justify the war, oil, katrina, whatever, he will do it, anyone in his position would. And being prepared to go into Iraq, do you realize you just shot Bush in the behind with that statement and you may as well sign up for Kerry's campaign as his campaign manager. The idea that the U.S. should have been prepared is the battle cry of the demos. What, do you think being prepared was someone elses fault?
Everyone agrees, the terrorists want to kill you and me. Nobody, and i mean nobody disagrees with that. This isnt breaking news. The military and intelligence community has always, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, been there for this purpose. What's that have to do with Bush or how this war is fought in Iraq and how it is fought against terror? Nothing prevented Bush from using intel before, nothing now. But, I can tell you what, if the soldiers that were sent to Iraq, were instead sent to Afghanistan, and told dont quit until you find every terrorist, ESPECIALLY BIN LADEN, they would have had the necessary man power and machine to get the job done. Instead, Bush in all his wisdom, decides, that Sadam was a bigger threat than Bin Laden, the guy who actually attacked the U.S., they guy we should put all focus on. Bush took those resources and sent them after sadam, that was already cornered and not going anywhere. Bush failed to get the prize and still fails today. Will Bin Laden attack again, most likely, could bush have stopped him if he used soldiers in Iraq to go to Afghanistan instead, and sweep across the country, most likely. Did bush create the mess, no, but did bush fix it, no. I think we are playing on Bin Laden's playing field when we cannot stop him in Afghanistan because we lack manpower.
So, where did Bin Laden come from? Since Bush is doing the right thing now, who did the wrong thing? Iran-Contra, Afghanistan-Soviet, Sadam, which administration before Bush W., created and/or failed to take serious the threat? I know what you will say, Clinton, he's an easy scape goat. WRONG. Bin Laden said, when he was being trained by Americans, that he would destroy the soviets because they invaded his brothers [muslims] land. After america pulled out (reagan), he said you betrayed me, now I will kill you americans. Reagan, Bush sr., and all the way up to today, have contributed to this problem thru U.S. policy. Throw rocks where they are deserved. Tell us what the problem is instead of broad intimations that if your against Bush you are the problem and millions will die.
V/R
Finally, FISA or no FISA, doesnt stop Bush from doing his job. Bush failing to take the APPROPRIATE action is what Bush is doing wrong. Bush could have exercises his power before 9/11, but didnt. Why do we trust him to do it now? Bush's hands are not tied, never have been, that's just a smoke screen that ultra-fundamentalists like to promote. If a warhead is going to be detonated on one of our major cities, it has nothing to do with whether or not he complied with the FISA laws. That's just smoke again. He can gets the same intelligence whether or not he complies with FISA. 1.5 million will not die because Bush has a reporting requirement. B.S.
You may not "care" or appreciate the rights and freedoms that our founding fathers fought to obtain, but some of us do. Americans should not die because of red tape - like armor on vehicles, like fighting a war that was misrepresented to the American People, like not having sufficient personnel to cover their Edit, etcetera, but they are. American soldiers, sailors and marines are dying today because of the red tape and Lobster Eaters that you for some reason defend on the one hand and criticize on the other.
Regarding the WMD's, come on, you think if Bush can prove the WMD's got trucked out of Iraq he wouldnt be more than happy to show it. This guy is doing everything he can to prove the WMD's and cant. His approval ratings are in the toilet, anything he can do to better himself and justify the war, oil, katrina, whatever, he will do it, anyone in his position would. And being prepared to go into Iraq, do you realize you just shot Bush in the behind with that statement and you may as well sign up for Kerry's campaign as his campaign manager. The idea that the U.S. should have been prepared is the battle cry of the demos. What, do you think being prepared was someone elses fault?
Everyone agrees, the terrorists want to kill you and me. Nobody, and i mean nobody disagrees with that. This isnt breaking news. The military and intelligence community has always, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, been there for this purpose. What's that have to do with Bush or how this war is fought in Iraq and how it is fought against terror? Nothing prevented Bush from using intel before, nothing now. But, I can tell you what, if the soldiers that were sent to Iraq, were instead sent to Afghanistan, and told dont quit until you find every terrorist, ESPECIALLY BIN LADEN, they would have had the necessary man power and machine to get the job done. Instead, Bush in all his wisdom, decides, that Sadam was a bigger threat than Bin Laden, the guy who actually attacked the U.S., they guy we should put all focus on. Bush took those resources and sent them after sadam, that was already cornered and not going anywhere. Bush failed to get the prize and still fails today. Will Bin Laden attack again, most likely, could bush have stopped him if he used soldiers in Iraq to go to Afghanistan instead, and sweep across the country, most likely. Did bush create the mess, no, but did bush fix it, no. I think we are playing on Bin Laden's playing field when we cannot stop him in Afghanistan because we lack manpower.
So, where did Bin Laden come from? Since Bush is doing the right thing now, who did the wrong thing? Iran-Contra, Afghanistan-Soviet, Sadam, which administration before Bush W., created and/or failed to take serious the threat? I know what you will say, Clinton, he's an easy scape goat. WRONG. Bin Laden said, when he was being trained by Americans, that he would destroy the soviets because they invaded his brothers [muslims] land. After america pulled out (reagan), he said you betrayed me, now I will kill you americans. Reagan, Bush sr., and all the way up to today, have contributed to this problem thru U.S. policy. Throw rocks where they are deserved. Tell us what the problem is instead of broad intimations that if your against Bush you are the problem and millions will die.
V/R
It goes without saying that there is plenty of blame to go around for the mess but this country is in but you won't find much "understanding " for our point of view around this neighborhood.
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Originally Posted by herb
President Bush admited he was wrong and there were no WMD's. Perhaps Afganastan is where we should have stayed and made our statement to the terrorists
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From: Battle Creek Michigan
Originally Posted by Lary Ellis (Top)
We never left Afghanistan, I have buddys I served with still over there, but that doesn't work with all your rhetoric does it?
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From: VA
Hearing some of these replies makes me wish that this had happened during the 1930s and 40s, you know back in a time when people were willing to make a sacrafice to do the right thing.
Do you think the WW2 generation was worried about trivial matters? Doubtful. They where not afraid to sacrifice and step on some toes, as long as the end justified the means. These people knew the meaning of the word sacrifice, I think some of us may need to look it up. (OK, and no lame posting of the definition 
)
If someone needs to listen to my phone conversation, in order to better protect my family and friends, I have zero problem with that. I think we should all be willing to do whatever it takes to end this. I mean seriously we are talking about this all safe at home, while others are making far, far greater sacrifices. Let's suck it up and take one for the team.
Do you think the WW2 generation was worried about trivial matters? Doubtful. They where not afraid to sacrifice and step on some toes, as long as the end justified the means. These people knew the meaning of the word sacrifice, I think some of us may need to look it up. (OK, and no lame posting of the definition
) If someone needs to listen to my phone conversation, in order to better protect my family and friends, I have zero problem with that. I think we should all be willing to do whatever it takes to end this. I mean seriously we are talking about this all safe at home, while others are making far, far greater sacrifices. Let's suck it up and take one for the team.
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From: Battle Creek Michigan
Originally Posted by BlackSunShyne
Hearing some of these replies makes me wish that this had happened during the 1930s and 40s, you know back in a time when people were willing to make a sacrafice to do the right thing.
Do you think the WW2 generation was worried about trivial matters? Doubtful. They where not afraid to sacrifice and step on some toes, as long as the end justified the means. These people knew the meaning of the word sacrifice, I think some of us may need to look it up. (OK, and no lame posting of the definition )
If someone needs to listen to my phone conversation, in order to better protect my family and friends, I have zero problem with that. I think we should all be willing to do whatever it takes to end this. I mean seriously we are talking about this all safe at home, while others are making far, far greater sacrifices. Let's suck it up and take one for the team.
Do you think the WW2 generation was worried about trivial matters? Doubtful. They where not afraid to sacrifice and step on some toes, as long as the end justified the means. These people knew the meaning of the word sacrifice, I think some of us may need to look it up. (OK, and no lame posting of the definition
) If someone needs to listen to my phone conversation, in order to better protect my family and friends, I have zero problem with that. I think we should all be willing to do whatever it takes to end this. I mean seriously we are talking about this all safe at home, while others are making far, far greater sacrifices. Let's suck it up and take one for the team.
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Originally Posted by steven
Bush is one of these Lobster Tail eaters that has no idea what works in the field, as you put it.
Originally Posted by steven
Buy the way, this "pansyfied liber law" as you call it, was made as the result of Nixon.
Originally Posted by steven
Finally, FISA or no FISA, doesnt stop Bush from doing his job.
Originally Posted by steven
If a warhead is going to be detonated on one of our major cities, it has nothing to do with whether or not he complied with the FISA laws.
Originally Posted by steven
You may not "care" or appreciate the rights and freedoms that our founding fathers fought to obtain, but some of us do.
Originally Posted by steven
Americans should not die because of red tape
Originally Posted by steven
like fighting a war that was misrepresented to the American People,
Originally Posted by steven
American soldiers, sailors and marines are dying today because of the red tape and Lobster Eaters that you for some reason defend on the one hand and criticize on the other.
Originally Posted by steven
And being prepared to go into Iraq, do you realize you just shot Bush in the behind with that statement and you may as well sign up for Kerry's campaign as his campaign manager. The idea that the U.S. should have been prepared is the battle cry of the demos. What, do you think being prepared was someone elses fault?
Originally Posted by steven
Nothing prevented Bush from using intel before, nothing now. But, I can tell you what, if the soldiers that were sent to Iraq, were instead sent to Afghanistan, and told dont quit until you find every terrorist, ESPECIALLY BIN LADEN, they would have had the necessary man power and machine to get the job done.
Originally Posted by steven
Instead, Bush in all his wisdom, decides, that Sadam was a bigger threat than Bin Laden, the guy who actually attacked the U.S., they guy we should put all focus on.
Originally Posted by steven
Did bush create the mess, no, but did bush fix it, no. I think we are playing on Bin Laden's playing field when we cannot stop him in Afghanistan because we lack manpower.
Originally Posted by steven
So, where did Bin Laden come from? Since Bush is doing the right thing now, who did the wrong thing? Iran-Contra, Afghanistan-Soviet, Sadam, which administration before Bush W., created and/or failed to take serious the threat? I know what you will say, Clinton
Clinton did let the ball drop on Bin Laden as well as Somalia. I lost close friends due to his ineptitude as a Military leader.
Originally Posted by steven
if your against Bush you are the problem and millions will die.
V/R
V/R
If you are more concerned with the govt listening to your phone calls than going after these killers...You may end up deserving what you get.....
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Originally Posted by herb
If we had dedicated all the troops we have in Iraq to Afganastan instead of King George trying to even the score for his dads mistakes , that mess would probably been taken care of by now and our troops would have been home instead of being in harms way in Iraq., but then i don't imagine that works with your retoric does it ?
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Originally Posted by herb
If the laws need to be changed then change them.
Laws that worked in the 70's may not be a good idea in todays different situation. We have to be realistic and look to stop todays threats with what works for today.
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From: State of Confusion
Originally Posted by Lary Ellis (Top)
Why circumvent the laws?
http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep.html
http://www.barefootsworld.net/war_ep1.html
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph...ional_emergency
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph...xecutive_Orders
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From: Battle Creek Michigan
Larry, points of political views set aside, i honestly think we are in a no win situation in Iraq. This is not a view held by just a few Americans and foreign countries , righties and lefties .
I don't know what the solution is but the way things are going there it seems imparative that our present course of action is doomed
I don't know what the solution is but the way things are going there it seems imparative that our present course of action is doomed
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From: Lyndon KS
Ok, lets all settle down and get this back to a discussion vs. an arguement.
One aspect of maturity is the ability to agree to disagree right?
See, I have a problem with this.... The law allows the eavesdropping of calls origintaing from or going to overseas locations, or from/to KNOWN terrorists... they can be monitored, and THEN, if they wish to continue tracking that subjects communications, they have 72 hours to apply for a warrant, and during the application time, the monitoring may be continued...
they are loosing NO information, no time delay during which they can not maintain the survellience...
so again, why not comply with the law?
If by questioning this, it makes me appear not to care about our nations security, you are wrong. I love this country and ALL that makes it great. We have rights here that others in the world do not enjoy. Our freedoms are dear to us and should NOT be given up freely or without question. The right to question and demand accountablilty from our goverment is one of the things that seperates us from the rest of the world.
I beleive it is one of the things that you and the others like you who served in combat for our country fought to preserve. That is why seeing ANY loss of personal freedom go unchallenged is bothersome and worrisome to me.
If we are to say that our rights, liberties and our constitution are no longer valid or that they are " in the way" then I say the terrorists have won. An absolute and complete victory over the United States of America, because once we stop being who and what we have always been as a nation, we have been destroyed as surely as if we are bombed into oblivion.
They hate us because of the freedoms we enjoy and what we represent to the world. Their goal is to change us into something more like themselves......... are they winning?
Does that make sense? not sure if I explain myself well....
One aspect of maturity is the ability to agree to disagree right?
Originally Posted by Larry
Simply because in the real world of battling terrorist,72 hours may as well be 5 years and in some situations it just is more important to keep track of these scumbags than waste time with bureaucratic nonsense.
they are loosing NO information, no time delay during which they can not maintain the survellience...
so again, why not comply with the law?
If by questioning this, it makes me appear not to care about our nations security, you are wrong. I love this country and ALL that makes it great. We have rights here that others in the world do not enjoy. Our freedoms are dear to us and should NOT be given up freely or without question. The right to question and demand accountablilty from our goverment is one of the things that seperates us from the rest of the world.
I beleive it is one of the things that you and the others like you who served in combat for our country fought to preserve. That is why seeing ANY loss of personal freedom go unchallenged is bothersome and worrisome to me.
If we are to say that our rights, liberties and our constitution are no longer valid or that they are " in the way" then I say the terrorists have won. An absolute and complete victory over the United States of America, because once we stop being who and what we have always been as a nation, we have been destroyed as surely as if we are bombed into oblivion.
They hate us because of the freedoms we enjoy and what we represent to the world. Their goal is to change us into something more like themselves......... are they winning?
Does that make sense? not sure if I explain myself well....
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From: Nocona, Texas
My only question. What has this hurt? we have caught terrorists and foiled plans and no innocent Americans have been harmed in any way have they? Until this wiretapping starts to invade on average peoples fredoms, ex. NSA hears Joe Blow trying to arrange a spot to meet his dealer, or Jane Doe is thinking about ripping her Mattress tag off then who can honestly say that our civil liberties are being dangerously infringed upon? I don't care what they hear me say or see me type because it is to protect me and you and they aren't messing with my daily life. The poor sucker that is assigned to listen to my every move is going to either die of bordome or laugh himself to death listening to some of my calls. On another note, No Yahoo and Goolgle shouldn't just turn over all search engine results, but as I recall it was over Child Pornography was it not? I personaly don't have a problem if the search results on child **** are turned over because those are sick people who need to be caught before they take the next step and kidnap YOUR children and have their way with them. That is not a valid argument for your "next step" defense against this.
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Chris,
I respect both you and your opinion, but I don't agree that this is an issue at all, just more political rhetoric being bantered about by the Liberal media and their cronies.
Slim says it pretty well I think, we need to be focused on how to survive this war, and not on whether or not somebody hears me wish Aunt Gertie a happy birthday.
I know you feel that if we change our way of life we are letting them win, but we are at war, and you either do what it takes to win, or you lose. We have tied the hands of prosecutors and police officers to the point they are becoming ineffective. Now we want to do it to the very people we hold responsible for the safety of this country.
They spend more time waiting on approval for warrants and shuffling paperwork than actually combating crime. The liberals want to hamper the fight against terrorism in the same manner, and it is pure suicide.
We need to take back the streets, give the rights back to the victims and turn the dogs loose on the criminals and terrorist. If we don't simple things like worrying about who is listening on the phone won't matter any more anyway.
I don't want to give up any of my rights either, but when I weigh the importance of what we need to do, against what everyone is complaining about, the answer is simple.
We can only make our selves safer by taking a proactive stance, we tried the sit back and wait approach and we all found out on 9/11 that was a mistake.
This isn't about politics, it should not be between the right and left. Both sides should be willing to do what it takes to rid our selves of the problems we face. Until the left admits they made the choice to go to war and stop trying to lay blame, we will never unite as we should against this enemy.
In the 40's everyone knew what was important, they drew together and made sacrifices so we could defeat the enemy. Today we have a political element that just wants to focus blame to make their own political agendas look better.
I think that is a very sad commentary of our country in general, there should only be one agenda here and we know who the enemy is. All this stuff is about the upcoming elections NOT the problem we are all staring in the face.
If it were up to me, every single representative who places his party's stance above the safety of this country, would be run out of town on a rail. Yes they do it on both sides of the fence and THAT will be how the Terrorist will beat us.
This is how I see it, I realize you may not agree, but I also think you mean well and it was never my intent to say otherwise. Yes we can agree to disagree
But I have no doubt that were the fight brought to our door step, you would be standing shoulder to shoulder with me on the firing line.
I respect both you and your opinion, but I don't agree that this is an issue at all, just more political rhetoric being bantered about by the Liberal media and their cronies.
Slim says it pretty well I think, we need to be focused on how to survive this war, and not on whether or not somebody hears me wish Aunt Gertie a happy birthday.
I know you feel that if we change our way of life we are letting them win, but we are at war, and you either do what it takes to win, or you lose. We have tied the hands of prosecutors and police officers to the point they are becoming ineffective. Now we want to do it to the very people we hold responsible for the safety of this country.
They spend more time waiting on approval for warrants and shuffling paperwork than actually combating crime. The liberals want to hamper the fight against terrorism in the same manner, and it is pure suicide.
We need to take back the streets, give the rights back to the victims and turn the dogs loose on the criminals and terrorist. If we don't simple things like worrying about who is listening on the phone won't matter any more anyway.
I don't want to give up any of my rights either, but when I weigh the importance of what we need to do, against what everyone is complaining about, the answer is simple.
We can only make our selves safer by taking a proactive stance, we tried the sit back and wait approach and we all found out on 9/11 that was a mistake.
This isn't about politics, it should not be between the right and left. Both sides should be willing to do what it takes to rid our selves of the problems we face. Until the left admits they made the choice to go to war and stop trying to lay blame, we will never unite as we should against this enemy.
In the 40's everyone knew what was important, they drew together and made sacrifices so we could defeat the enemy. Today we have a political element that just wants to focus blame to make their own political agendas look better.
I think that is a very sad commentary of our country in general, there should only be one agenda here and we know who the enemy is. All this stuff is about the upcoming elections NOT the problem we are all staring in the face.
If it were up to me, every single representative who places his party's stance above the safety of this country, would be run out of town on a rail. Yes they do it on both sides of the fence and THAT will be how the Terrorist will beat us.
This is how I see it, I realize you may not agree, but I also think you mean well and it was never my intent to say otherwise. Yes we can agree to disagree
But I have no doubt that were the fight brought to our door step, you would be standing shoulder to shoulder with me on the firing line.
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From: Battle Creek Michigan
"But I have no doubt that were the fight brought to our door step, you would be standing shoulder to shoulder with me on the firing line."
As would I, between you and I larry they wouldn't stand a chance. I'de get the ones you don"t like and you'de get the ones i don't like
Again , i repeat that the issue is not what is being done as much as it is the administration's ignoring the laws.
What would happen if you or i picked and chose the laws we wanted to obey?
Right's right and wrongs wrong (and lefties have it right)
As would I, between you and I larry they wouldn't stand a chance. I'de get the ones you don"t like and you'de get the ones i don't like
Again , i repeat that the issue is not what is being done as much as it is the administration's ignoring the laws.
What would happen if you or i picked and chose the laws we wanted to obey?
Right's right and wrongs wrong (and lefties have it right)
