Self-defense
02-23-2012, 05:43 AM
#1
Administrator
Thread Starter
Self-defense
From; http://m.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-...meowners-surge
Burglars in the bull’s eye; shootings by homeowners surge
Pacific Northwest burglars appear to be suddenly facing a bigger threat than barking dogs, alarms and police.
In recent weeks, several burglars have been shot, and at least one man was killed by an armed Edmonds homeowner. Last night, another burglar took a bullet, and he is currently at Seattle's Harborview Medical Center with a lead-induced headache.
In the aftermath of these incidents, as this column noted, there has not been much sympathy expressed by the public for any of the perforated perpetrators. Indeed, judging from comments left on the KOMO website after a couple of these shootings, the public is angry and downright bloodthirsty. They're cheering for people like the homeowner who blasted one burglar with a shotgun the other night. The suspect was apprehended on a Metro bus, according to the Seattle Times.
‘Keep shooting these scum. Sooner or later these morons will get the idea that their chosen line of work is hazardous to their health.’—‘1ozatatime’ (KOMO website)
This phenomenon is not isolated to the Northwest, however. A quick check by this column earlier Wednesday revealed that there have been shootings by homeowners of suspected burglars all over the country in recent days. An 87-year-old Los Angeles man seriously wounded a burglar. A Baltimore, MD burglar was shot by his intended victim and later found dead, possibly from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. A Dallas, TX homeowner opened fire on two home invasion burglars, sending one to the hospital. A Kentucky man shot two burglars in his home. A Maine homeowner killed a burglar in his house.
The most recent reported incident in the Puget Sound area was Tuesday evening when a would-be burglar was shot in the head by a homeowner who – according to some of the responses at KOMO’s website – needs a bigger gun or a better aim, because the wounded suspect is expected to live. King County Sheriff's Sgt. Cindi West confirmed these details via telephone:
The homeowner said he was sleeping just before 6 p.m. when he heard his doorbell ring. He ignored it, but moments later he heard what sounded like glass shattering.
The man said he dialed 911 and grabbed a nearby gun before leaving his bedroom to investigate the noise.
The man soon noticed that his sliding glass door had been broken and two men were standing in his house.
He fired at least one shot, hitting one of the intruders in the head. The other man ran away.—KOMO
Are homeowners “taking the law into their own hands?” No, not really, and to argue that these citizens are acting as vigilantes suggests a serious misunderstanding of true self-defense.
Actually, citizens who fire in self-defense are acting within the parameters of existing self-defense and use-of-force statutes that essentially recognize two fundamental principles: A person’s home is his/her castle, and the oldest human right – a natural right – is the right of self-preservation. However, the law does not, nor has it ever, put an open season on burglars, allowing them to be shot on sight. The fact that a lot of burglars have gotten shot lately suggests that a new breed has emerged; people who are not afraid to enter an occupied home. That's not always the case, as some burglars simply don't know, but on the other hand, they shouldn't be breaking into someone else's home in the first place. Whose fault is it if they get shot in the process?
For a shooting to be justified, the armed citizen must be acting in true self-defense, or the defense of another innocent party (i.e., a family member, loved one or guest), and there must be a genuine fear of grave bodily harm or death.
Prosecutors – at least here in Washington State – appear well-acquainted with this state’s self-defense statute, and it would be the rare case that charges are filed against an armed private citizen who truly acted in self-defense using lethal force.
This column has discussed these concepts before. Let’s talk about burglars.
Q. Does a burglar caught in the act deserve to get shot? (Answer below, please, and take your time with spelling and grammar. And be pithy, as Bill O’Reilly says.)
Perhaps one should ask Amanda Tucker, a 27-year-old transplant from Alabama, who has racked up a remarkable 23 felony charges. She's not exactly a model citizen. Amanda is described by the SeattleP-I.com as “a drug addict with a clear, calculated pattern of victimizing the elderly.” Here’s what the on-line newspaper says about her, which might explain why homeowners are now cheering their neighbors who shoot first and then dial 9-1-1.
Tucker pleaded guilty on Jan. 23. But because Tucker is eligible for a drug offender sentencing alternative she could face only 36.75 months in jail, which could also be reduced by good behavior.—SeattleP-I.com
Good behavior? That doesn’t seem to be part of Tucker’s lifestyle. Perhaps someone will send her some news clippings, or a copy of this column. She will at least be made aware that if she returns to her criminal habits after getting out of jail, her next stop might be an emergency room or the morgue, and she may be the only person sorry about that.
This is what, the third/fourth story like this in a couple of weeks? Either these crooks don't know how to read, (or watch the news) or they're just too d@mn stupid to comprehend that we're getting tired of them breaking into our homes and stealing the things we WORK for. Lock and load people, let's keep this trend going. Eventually, the word will get out that their friends are getting shot, and they'll change "professions"—‘SquirrelyWrath1’ (KOMO website)
Social do-gooders argue that burglary is a mere property crime, and that a bullet is too harsh. This is typically said by people who have not been burglarized. Remember the adage: “A Liberal is a Conservative who hasn’t been mugged…yet.” Or burglarized.
Burglary is not a mere property crime, not when it involves the invasion of an occupied dwelling. The common denominator to all of these recent shootings is that the victim was at home. In a similar situation, what would you do? Face-to-face with someone like Amanda Tucker, or a male counterpart, the options quickly evaporate.
Burglars have been learning the hard way that their intended victims are fed up and are fighting back.
Burglars in the bull’s eye; shootings by homeowners surge
Pacific Northwest burglars appear to be suddenly facing a bigger threat than barking dogs, alarms and police.
In recent weeks, several burglars have been shot, and at least one man was killed by an armed Edmonds homeowner. Last night, another burglar took a bullet, and he is currently at Seattle's Harborview Medical Center with a lead-induced headache.
In the aftermath of these incidents, as this column noted, there has not been much sympathy expressed by the public for any of the perforated perpetrators. Indeed, judging from comments left on the KOMO website after a couple of these shootings, the public is angry and downright bloodthirsty. They're cheering for people like the homeowner who blasted one burglar with a shotgun the other night. The suspect was apprehended on a Metro bus, according to the Seattle Times.
‘Keep shooting these scum. Sooner or later these morons will get the idea that their chosen line of work is hazardous to their health.’—‘1ozatatime’ (KOMO website)
This phenomenon is not isolated to the Northwest, however. A quick check by this column earlier Wednesday revealed that there have been shootings by homeowners of suspected burglars all over the country in recent days. An 87-year-old Los Angeles man seriously wounded a burglar. A Baltimore, MD burglar was shot by his intended victim and later found dead, possibly from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. A Dallas, TX homeowner opened fire on two home invasion burglars, sending one to the hospital. A Kentucky man shot two burglars in his home. A Maine homeowner killed a burglar in his house.
The most recent reported incident in the Puget Sound area was Tuesday evening when a would-be burglar was shot in the head by a homeowner who – according to some of the responses at KOMO’s website – needs a bigger gun or a better aim, because the wounded suspect is expected to live. King County Sheriff's Sgt. Cindi West confirmed these details via telephone:
The homeowner said he was sleeping just before 6 p.m. when he heard his doorbell ring. He ignored it, but moments later he heard what sounded like glass shattering.
The man said he dialed 911 and grabbed a nearby gun before leaving his bedroom to investigate the noise.
The man soon noticed that his sliding glass door had been broken and two men were standing in his house.
He fired at least one shot, hitting one of the intruders in the head. The other man ran away.—KOMO
Are homeowners “taking the law into their own hands?” No, not really, and to argue that these citizens are acting as vigilantes suggests a serious misunderstanding of true self-defense.
Actually, citizens who fire in self-defense are acting within the parameters of existing self-defense and use-of-force statutes that essentially recognize two fundamental principles: A person’s home is his/her castle, and the oldest human right – a natural right – is the right of self-preservation. However, the law does not, nor has it ever, put an open season on burglars, allowing them to be shot on sight. The fact that a lot of burglars have gotten shot lately suggests that a new breed has emerged; people who are not afraid to enter an occupied home. That's not always the case, as some burglars simply don't know, but on the other hand, they shouldn't be breaking into someone else's home in the first place. Whose fault is it if they get shot in the process?
For a shooting to be justified, the armed citizen must be acting in true self-defense, or the defense of another innocent party (i.e., a family member, loved one or guest), and there must be a genuine fear of grave bodily harm or death.
Prosecutors – at least here in Washington State – appear well-acquainted with this state’s self-defense statute, and it would be the rare case that charges are filed against an armed private citizen who truly acted in self-defense using lethal force.
This column has discussed these concepts before. Let’s talk about burglars.
Q. Does a burglar caught in the act deserve to get shot? (Answer below, please, and take your time with spelling and grammar. And be pithy, as Bill O’Reilly says.)
Perhaps one should ask Amanda Tucker, a 27-year-old transplant from Alabama, who has racked up a remarkable 23 felony charges. She's not exactly a model citizen. Amanda is described by the SeattleP-I.com as “a drug addict with a clear, calculated pattern of victimizing the elderly.” Here’s what the on-line newspaper says about her, which might explain why homeowners are now cheering their neighbors who shoot first and then dial 9-1-1.
Tucker pleaded guilty on Jan. 23. But because Tucker is eligible for a drug offender sentencing alternative she could face only 36.75 months in jail, which could also be reduced by good behavior.—SeattleP-I.com
Good behavior? That doesn’t seem to be part of Tucker’s lifestyle. Perhaps someone will send her some news clippings, or a copy of this column. She will at least be made aware that if she returns to her criminal habits after getting out of jail, her next stop might be an emergency room or the morgue, and she may be the only person sorry about that.
This is what, the third/fourth story like this in a couple of weeks? Either these crooks don't know how to read, (or watch the news) or they're just too d@mn stupid to comprehend that we're getting tired of them breaking into our homes and stealing the things we WORK for. Lock and load people, let's keep this trend going. Eventually, the word will get out that their friends are getting shot, and they'll change "professions"—‘SquirrelyWrath1’ (KOMO website)
Social do-gooders argue that burglary is a mere property crime, and that a bullet is too harsh. This is typically said by people who have not been burglarized. Remember the adage: “A Liberal is a Conservative who hasn’t been mugged…yet.” Or burglarized.
Burglary is not a mere property crime, not when it involves the invasion of an occupied dwelling. The common denominator to all of these recent shootings is that the victim was at home. In a similar situation, what would you do? Face-to-face with someone like Amanda Tucker, or a male counterpart, the options quickly evaporate.
Burglars have been learning the hard way that their intended victims are fed up and are fighting back.
02-23-2012, 08:17 AM
#2
Registered User
I have no problem introducing an intruder/burgler to multiple rounds of a .40cal. I have been burglarized (twice in 2 wks) where literally almost everything was taken and it is not a pleasant experience.
02-23-2012, 10:16 AM
#4
Registered User
In the case of an intruder, better to let them be carried by six than to be judged by 12. Just a word of caution. If you are going to shoot, shoot the burglar, not the ground.
New Hampshire man arrested for firing gun into ground while catching suspected burglar
By Joshua Rhett Miller
Published February 21, 2012
Foster's Daily Democrat
A New Hampshire man who fired his handgun into the ground to scare an alleged burglar he caught crawling out of a neighbor's window is now facing a felony charge -- and the same potential prison sentence as the man he stopped.
Dennis Fleming, 61, of Farmington, was arrested for reckless conduct after the Saturday incident at his 19th century farmhouse. The single grandfather had returned home to find that his home had been burglarized and spotted Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of a window at a neighbor's home. Fleming said he yelled "Freeze!" before firing his gun into the ground, then held Hebert at gunpoint until police arrived.
"I didn't think I could handle this guy physically, so I fired into the ground," Fleming told FoxNews.com. "He stopped. He knew I was serious. I was angry … and I was worried that this guy was going to come after me."
No one was injured in the incident, but when the police arrived, they made two arrests. Hebert was charged with two counts of burglary and drug possession. He faces up to seven years in prison if convicted. Fleming, meanwhile, is scheduled to be arraigned March 20 on a charge of reckless conduct, which could potentially land him a sentence similar to the one Hebert faces.
"I didn't know it was illegal [to fire into the ground], but I had to make that guy realize I was serious," Fleming said. "I've got a clean record. I really don't want to be convicted."
County Attorney Tom Velardi told Foster's Daily Democrat he will review the case and determine if the charge against Fleming is appropriate under the state statutes regarding self-defense and defense of property.
Fleming, meanwhile, is hoping to catch a break.
"I have 14 grandchildren, I don't want to be a felon and go to jail," he said. "I'm kind of wound up about it."
Fleming's collection of seven rifles and a .38-caliber handgun were seized by police. But Fleming said he's not entirely defenseless: "I've got a Louisville Slugger here, but I would call the police," he said.
Calls seeking comment from Farmington Police Department Chief Scott Roberge were not immediately returned.
Penny Dean, a spokeswoman for the Gun Owners of New Hampshire, said her organization is "absolutely outraged" by Fleming's arrest.
"This homeowner fired at the ground, from all accounts, in a safe direction and held a burglar for police and did things correctly," Dean told FoxNews.com. "The fact that this man would be charged is an outrage. Burglars in New Hampshire must know it's open season, since homeowners cannot defend themselves, as evidenced by this case. This is charging the victim."
Rick Pelkey, Fleming's longtime neighbor, said he's now worried how the "straight-forward, working-class guy" will pay legal fees associated with the arrest.
"I think it's outrageous," Pelkey told FoxNews.com. "He did the community a service here. We ought to thank him for it."
New Hampshire man arrested for firing gun into ground while catching suspected burglar
By Joshua Rhett Miller
Published February 21, 2012
Foster's Daily Democrat
A New Hampshire man who fired his handgun into the ground to scare an alleged burglar he caught crawling out of a neighbor's window is now facing a felony charge -- and the same potential prison sentence as the man he stopped.
Dennis Fleming, 61, of Farmington, was arrested for reckless conduct after the Saturday incident at his 19th century farmhouse. The single grandfather had returned home to find that his home had been burglarized and spotted Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of a window at a neighbor's home. Fleming said he yelled "Freeze!" before firing his gun into the ground, then held Hebert at gunpoint until police arrived.
"I didn't think I could handle this guy physically, so I fired into the ground," Fleming told FoxNews.com. "He stopped. He knew I was serious. I was angry … and I was worried that this guy was going to come after me."
No one was injured in the incident, but when the police arrived, they made two arrests. Hebert was charged with two counts of burglary and drug possession. He faces up to seven years in prison if convicted. Fleming, meanwhile, is scheduled to be arraigned March 20 on a charge of reckless conduct, which could potentially land him a sentence similar to the one Hebert faces.
"I didn't know it was illegal [to fire into the ground], but I had to make that guy realize I was serious," Fleming said. "I've got a clean record. I really don't want to be convicted."
County Attorney Tom Velardi told Foster's Daily Democrat he will review the case and determine if the charge against Fleming is appropriate under the state statutes regarding self-defense and defense of property.
Fleming, meanwhile, is hoping to catch a break.
"I have 14 grandchildren, I don't want to be a felon and go to jail," he said. "I'm kind of wound up about it."
Fleming's collection of seven rifles and a .38-caliber handgun were seized by police. But Fleming said he's not entirely defenseless: "I've got a Louisville Slugger here, but I would call the police," he said.
Calls seeking comment from Farmington Police Department Chief Scott Roberge were not immediately returned.
Penny Dean, a spokeswoman for the Gun Owners of New Hampshire, said her organization is "absolutely outraged" by Fleming's arrest.
"This homeowner fired at the ground, from all accounts, in a safe direction and held a burglar for police and did things correctly," Dean told FoxNews.com. "The fact that this man would be charged is an outrage. Burglars in New Hampshire must know it's open season, since homeowners cannot defend themselves, as evidenced by this case. This is charging the victim."
Rick Pelkey, Fleming's longtime neighbor, said he's now worried how the "straight-forward, working-class guy" will pay legal fees associated with the arrest.
"I think it's outrageous," Pelkey told FoxNews.com. "He did the community a service here. We ought to thank him for it."
02-23-2012, 10:36 AM
#5
Registered User
My anti-burglary system amounts to a very long blind driveway, a yard that requires repeated backing to escape, and a reputation for being both a little crazy and a real good shot.
02-23-2012, 02:34 PM
#6
Urban Legend
About 10 years ago homes in the area started being broke into. I started spreading the rumor around that my 87 year old grandmother had started to slip a little and that she had started carrying her shot gun everywhere she was on the farm. Also that I had to be sure that she realized who I was and that she had almost shot me a time or two as I would enter her house.
Now so that you understand, my grandmother never fired a gun in her life and did not even have one in the house. But every other house in the area had things stolen and we did not. So go figure.
She laughed about me calling her Shotgun Mildred until the day she died.
02-23-2012, 02:56 PM
#7
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This sounds alot like my anti break-in device.
About 10 years ago homes in the area started being broke into. I started spreading the rumor around that my 87 year old grandmother had started to slip a little and that she had started carrying her shot gun everywhere she was on the farm. Also that I had to be sure that she realized who I was and that she had almost shot me a time or two as I would enter her house.
Now so that you understand, my grandmother never fired a gun in her life and did not even have one in the house. But every other house in the area had things stolen and we did not. So go figure.
She laughed about me calling her Shotgun Mildred until the day she died.
About 10 years ago homes in the area started being broke into. I started spreading the rumor around that my 87 year old grandmother had started to slip a little and that she had started carrying her shot gun everywhere she was on the farm. Also that I had to be sure that she realized who I was and that she had almost shot me a time or two as I would enter her house.
Now so that you understand, my grandmother never fired a gun in her life and did not even have one in the house. But every other house in the area had things stolen and we did not. So go figure.
She laughed about me calling her Shotgun Mildred until the day she died.
sigh
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02-23-2012, 03:12 PM
#8
There is no G. There is no G. Repeat after me, THERE IS NO G!
Lead poisoning is an occupational hazard for crooks.
As for using your firearm, everybody, it is YOUR personal responsibility to know YOUR WEAPONS LAWS both city and state, pertaining to the purchasing of, owning, carrying, discharging, and selling firearms, both long and hand guns.
"I didn't know" is NOT a defense to prosecution.
The better you know your firearms/weapons laws, the better off and more fluid you'll be about the things you CAN be doing
As for using your firearm, everybody, it is YOUR personal responsibility to know YOUR WEAPONS LAWS both city and state, pertaining to the purchasing of, owning, carrying, discharging, and selling firearms, both long and hand guns.
"I didn't know" is NOT a defense to prosecution.
The better you know your firearms/weapons laws, the better off and more fluid you'll be about the things you CAN be doing
02-23-2012, 03:17 PM
#9
Lead poisoning is an occupational hazard for crooks.
As for using your firearm, everybody, it is YOUR personal responsibility to know YOUR WEAPONS LAWS both city and state, pertaining to the purchasing of, owning, carrying, discharging, and selling firearms, both long and hand guns.
"I didn't know" is NOT a defense to prosecution.
The better you know your firearms/weapons laws, the better off and more fluid you'll be about the things you CAN be doing
As for using your firearm, everybody, it is YOUR personal responsibility to know YOUR WEAPONS LAWS both city and state, pertaining to the purchasing of, owning, carrying, discharging, and selling firearms, both long and hand guns.
"I didn't know" is NOT a defense to prosecution.
The better you know your firearms/weapons laws, the better off and more fluid you'll be about the things you CAN be doing
02-23-2012, 08:41 PM
#10
Registered User
For as liberal as we are, Washington is "country" liberal. We have a good CCP program and great law enforcement officer's.
Remember, if you're gonna shoot, shoot to end the fight, and make sure you are in your home, you'll go to jail for shooting a perp in the driveway and even pointing a gun at one outside your home in your yard isn't a sure deal bet you'll get off scot free.
Can't fix stupid, but we can try!
Remember, if you're gonna shoot, shoot to end the fight, and make sure you are in your home, you'll go to jail for shooting a perp in the driveway and even pointing a gun at one outside your home in your yard isn't a sure deal bet you'll get off scot free.
Can't fix stupid, but we can try!
02-23-2012, 08:51 PM
#11
Muted one day, Banned the next....... Ah the life of a DTR 1%'er
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There was an elderly man in cincinnati last year that shot and killed another man for refusing to leave his yard. No charges were pressed
Ill try to find a link
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Ill try to find a link
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
02-23-2012, 09:01 PM
#12
Registered User
02-23-2012, 09:12 PM
#13
There is no G. There is no G. Repeat after me, THERE IS NO G!
In Texas the property is also covered, not under castle, but it is given consideration, along with the time of day or night. There is leniency given at night.
Around here you still might be arrested and/or go to trial, but the citizens will still judge pretty fairly. They known right from wrong. They are tired of criminals getting free passes. The difference between the jury and the defendant is the seat. I would say many subscribe to 'he needed killin' and will take care of their peer if the person was trying to sincerely take care of themselves or someone else.
With that I still say keep all actions within the scope of the law as best as humanly possible!
Around here you still might be arrested and/or go to trial, but the citizens will still judge pretty fairly. They known right from wrong. They are tired of criminals getting free passes. The difference between the jury and the defendant is the seat. I would say many subscribe to 'he needed killin' and will take care of their peer if the person was trying to sincerely take care of themselves or someone else.
With that I still say keep all actions within the scope of the law as best as humanly possible!
02-25-2012, 05:16 PM
#14
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So,
I have a question.
Where do you find laws about whether or not you bury the body of a burglar, or you call the police. I seem to be unclear as to what to do with them once you cause that "lead induced headache"
How deep is deep enough of a hole to bury him in ?
Any other suggestions, like covering the body with lime ?
Now I really wish I lived on a farm.
I have a question.
Where do you find laws about whether or not you bury the body of a burglar, or you call the police. I seem to be unclear as to what to do with them once you cause that "lead induced headache"
How deep is deep enough of a hole to bury him in ?
Any other suggestions, like covering the body with lime ?
Now I really wish I lived on a farm.
02-25-2012, 06:03 PM
#15
Administrator
Thread Starter
So,
I have a question.
Where do you find laws about whether or not you bury the body of a burglar, or you call the police. I seem to be unclear as to what to do with them once you cause that "lead induced headache"
How deep is deep enough of a hole to bury him in ?
Any other suggestions, like covering the body with lime ?
Now I really wish I lived on a farm.
I have a question.
Where do you find laws about whether or not you bury the body of a burglar, or you call the police. I seem to be unclear as to what to do with them once you cause that "lead induced headache"
How deep is deep enough of a hole to bury him in ?
Any other suggestions, like covering the body with lime ?
Now I really wish I lived on a farm.
That's just what I've HEARD tho.
