Hardtack

"I don't want to have to kill this man but I'll kill him graveyard dead," proclaimed the Oklahoma lady to the 911 operator when a thug was attempting to break in to her home.
And when he broke out the rear patio door glass and did try to enter she shot him with her shotgun......dead.
Yep...."Graveyard dead" should be a phrase that sends chills down all thugs backs thru out the country.

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dai...eyard_dead.php

txarrowhunter

I have guns, never been in any situation close to this, but if somebody was trying to break into my house I wouldn't shoot to kill. I would take a limb off or something but not kill them. Unless I knew they were coming with gun in hand ready to kill me. That's just what I like to believe.

Shovelhead

It's called "Deadly Force" for a reason.

"Shoot To Wound" is not the way to train.
If you're in fear for your life and feel the need to pull the trigger to stop a threat, you want to STOP that threat as quickly as possible.
There are cases where a criminal has been hit multiple times COM and still kept coming.......a shot to a limb (if you can hit it) won't count.

NO Law Enforcement agency trains it's officers to aim for a limb.
It's a real small target that moves very quickly.
In a crisis situation, shots Center Of Mass until the threat has been neturalized should be the the ONLY plan.

madhat

I agree with Ed 100%, plus, dead men tell no tales...

ofcmarc

Dead men can't sue either........

1-2-3

Dead men can't sue either........and the ones left to live will and do and have, and win those suits. I can assure you, you don't want to have to make restitution payments to a would be thief or wanna be thug for 10 years.

Chrisreyn

While no-one EVER " shoots to kill",
That kind of thinking will get you DEAD.. quickly....

IF you are in a situation that justifies the use of deadly force, you MUST apply that force in a manner that will STOP the offenders actions immediately and with finality..
That means you target the center of mass, or the largest area you can aim at, whether it be the torso, head, whatever.. and continue applying force until the suspect STOPS his aggressive action
It is simply unfortunate that the areas where lethal force should be applied to most quickly STOP a person are also the areas most likely to result in his death....

As far as the lawsuits, well, Ill still be breathing after one, and if I am legally, morally and ethically justified in the first place, Im not too worried about it..

* 23 years now as a career law enforcement officer and trainer*

txarrowhunter

Well it's one thing telling about it on a thread, but if it really came down to it there's no telling what the action would be in a real life threat. I've been thought how to have good bullet placement on targets, animals, and waterfowl and I have succeeded. Never on a human tho. One things for sure if he has a gun coming to kill me or is shooting at me, that's a for sure "graveyard dead" shot.

txarrowhunter

True,
two years ago I had a far uncle and a cousin shot dead in Tamaulipas, MX. and they were unarmed. The police said they been drinking and looking for trouble. There's no telling what the story really was if they had been just wounded. Who ever done it made sure they were dead cause they had been shot over 10x.

Chrisreyn

Thats the thing Tx... its one thing to talk about using lethal force against another human being, totally different to actually do it!
There are multitudes of reports and incidents of trained, experienced men who, when push came to shove, simply couldn't pull the trigger..
Our society and religions teach us from our earliest childhood "Thou Shall Not Kill".. and that message is ingrained into our psyche's daily throughout our lives.. its in our subconscious that if we kill another, we are condemned ourselves. We wil go to hell, we will be a criminal, all the things society teaches us are teh punishments for "murder".. and no matter how brash someone talks or denys this, " it wouldnt bother me, I'd kill the guy" bravado, it happens all the time...
You might be amazed at that number of soldiers, in combat and being shot at, who cant pull the trigger to shoot back! Society has taught them that they cant!This results in psychological issues for those that do use deadly force, even justifiably, and is a facet of this whole issue that is sorely overlooked.
David Grossman wrote an excellent piece about this , called "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society"...
it should be required reading for all who have a CCP or carry in the line of duty..


on a side note, wonder how long before this thread gets moved to the "GUN FORUM"

stinkindiesel

If you're legally, morally and ethically justified in using deadly force, I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.

chaikwa

That's pretty true. I've been in that situation 3 times in my life; twice while in the capacity of a LEO, and once in the woods in New Hampshire. The first time as a LEO I was worried about "Did I really have justification?". The second time as a LEO I KNEW I was justified because I had two other officers firing away with me. The third time in the woods I was worried mostly because I didn't know why the guy had shot at me, I didn't know if he was using a 'real' gun or if the rounds were live or not, and I didn't know how badly I had injured him. Or if I'd killed him or not. I followed a blood trail, although slight, for quite a ways and then lost it. I was concerned more for myself and the ramifications I might have to face. No one was ever reported being shot, killed or missing that I know of and nothing ever came of it, but it makes you think!

chaikwa.

rockcrawler304

^^^^^ This ^^^^


The problem with what some above had said is that in MOST situations like this, it will be at night time and obviously dark. I would rather shoot to kill than to hope the intruder did not have a gun and try to decide in the dark if it is a real threat or just a small unarmed threat. I would also not turn on any lights. I would yell something first, pump the shot gun and if there is still movement that sounds like it is still coming into the house, there would be a shot or two real quick!
All this while trying to keep all 4 dogs away too

Chrisreyn

Cant say this is a really great line of thought... this is how people accidentally shoot loved ones or innocents... KNOW what your shooting at before you EVER put that finger inside the trigger gaurd!
Target identification is critical!
Imagine yourself trying to articulate the reason you shot and killed someone when you cant even say you knew who/what it was?
Why would you pump the shotgun? I mean, why on earth would you even get a weapon out in a situation like that and NOT have a round in the chamber before you ever confronted someone, even verbally?

The key to all of this is being able to arcticulate why/when and how you made EVERY decision leading up to actually pulling the trigger..

Riflemanusmc

Most of us here have children. And most here know I'm alittle high strung. Now, have one of your young ones come in at later than midnight. I wasn't told she was going to be home at that time........Didn't get ugly. I was some what po'd about NOT being told. Men...THAT could have turned into a fathers worst nightmare. And almost did if not for years of training.


Target identification is critical!
Yes Sir, I concure...