Raspy

[QUOTE=capt.Ron;2142429

I wish everyone here who likes the move to politics would come over to the other forum. We've been told over there that it will be closed if we don't get the membership up real soon.[/QUOTE]




Let it close.

capt.Ron

That will probably happen and threads will continue to get locked here because of politics.

Raspy

I know it's almost impossible to avoid any political stuff here and this thread is a good example that problem. But those are the rules we agreed to play by and this is not a political site. That's why I said "too late" in my first response to chipmonk.

Over at Politics, the talk just seems to be inflamatory or people just talking at each other. If it had meaningful discussions about real issues it could be a good site. Fat chance.

There just doesn't seem to be a good way to discuss some issues without people throwing wrenches and insults into the mix.

Lary Ellis (Top)

You just stated the very reasons we don't allow Political discussions on this forum.

coparam4x4

I think this thread is starting to get more political, the more we keep talking about trying to keep politics out of the thread.....

chipmonk

maybe it's just me, but staying away from politics seems to have kept this thread pretty civil. very rarely in discussions about politics or religion, do you get people to meet and agree in the middle- you usually just get people who try unsuccessfully to convert the other to their side.

coparam4x4

The problem with talking about Oil is, everything about it always goes back to government in some form or another, oil is not completely devoid of government. So that in turn seems to make it a political discussion. It's not like any of these oil threads have turned into one political party against another, or Obama people vs. Mccain people (at least that I have seen anyway). See, now I have just turned it into a political thread, here comes the lock!!!

XLR8R

I don't think it's politically correct to use the word "political" anymore...

We are the greatest country in history, as evidenced by both our foundational ideals & principles and by our meteoric rise to superpower status.

As the world's penultimate industrialized nation, our most important resource (and our most vital need) is an abundant, safe supply of energy - of which hydrocarbon fuels - oil in particular - are the most efficient, productive & useful that are currently available.

Since we own such a vast quantity of petro-energy, doesn't it make sense to buy it from each other in a brotherhood of economic sanity, rather than continue to give our money, our time - and thus our very lives - to so many tyrants, despots, thugs and America-haters in the rest of the world that hold positions of power over their oil fields.

I'm excited to see what new energy-wonder may displace oil as the lifeblood of our society's advanced level of sophistication and achievement... but meanwhile, we must play with the cards in hand. Presently, we need affordable sources of petroleum, that leave us at the mercy of none.

The answer is so simple - it's no wonder our politicians have taken so long to realize it...

DRILL HERE! DRILL NOW! PAY LESS!!!

chipmonk

but the reality is that there is at best, a 50% chance of drilling in areas where oil companies do not currently hold leases. that is not to say that new drilling can't take place in the many areas where the oil companies currently hold leases, but choose not to drill there. in the current environmental climate (pardon the pun), and bad feelings about the oil companies and their profits, there is a lot of opposition to giving the oil companies more leases with no assurances of this new oil lowering our fuel prices, or even staying in this country. i would bet if the oil companies came up with the right plan (meaning some assurances that new drilling and new oil would benefit us and not just assure them of the 100's of billions in new profits), there would be a lot less resistance to new drilling in areas that had been previously off limits to them. BTW South Africa obtains lots of their oil from domestic coal- if the environmentalists would allow this here, we could fill our entire countries' fuel needs for approx. 250 years with coal pulled from the ground in the U.S. why have we not heard more about this? i suspect it might have something to do with large amounts of money not going to the right industry, if we were to use large quantities of coal to produce oil.

capt.Ron

Good answer!!
There's the argument that there are millions of acres that they have leases on that they're not drilling. this is part truth part fiction.
They are drilling in many of the areas that show a promise of production and not drilling on those places that show little or no promise. The anti drill folks don't want to mention that little piece of info.
The question I have for those folks is why not drill EVERYWHERE that shows promise?
I know the answer...They don't want drilling anywhere.
We should drill everywhere that has promise.
All the while we can continue looking for alternatives and improving on the alternatives that have yet to show enough potential to actually replace oil.
we have to take a multifaceted approach. there is no one single fix for energy independence.

MikeyB

The other issue is there's not enough drilling rigs to drill everywhere.
The rig market is a little tight right now.

MikeyB

capt.Ron

All the more reason to drill in the "MOST PRODUCTIVE" areas first.
We can then hit the lesser productive areas.

Raspy

I'm confused about us being the "penultamate" industrialized nation. Are we the next to last industrialized nation?

How can you say that drilling is the answer to our problems? At best it's only a short term answer. And if it really had an affect on prices in a few years, we would just go back to using all we want until the price went back up again. I want low prices as much as anyone, but deciding that drilling now is going to lower the price is only a guess, and it's a very weak strategy for a bright energy future. We need to demonstrate that oil is not as valuable to us as it has been. Use much less, find other energy sources, refuse to send our wealth to our enemies, etc. Drill? Yes, but also seriously start on finding other solutions instead of becomming complacent. There has been talk of becomming energy independent since the seventies and we can't even agree on mileage standards. As long as energy is cheap we'll use it as fast as we can. I don't deny that there is a lot of oil still left, but must we use it all before we change our use patterns? All the while giving our vast fortune to those that hate us? It's time to look forward and not base our future on a shaky past.

There will never be a "brotherhood of economic sanity". NEVER. We live in a society based on capitolism, not brotherhood. Greed is a far stronger impulse than helping our neighbors. Morality takes a back seat to profits, especially when there is a perceived shortage of the commodity in question. The whole idea for success is to either do something cheaper and better than the next guy or control the market to keep the next guy out. These ideas do not add up to helping someone, they add up to using them for traction.

I contend that we wll continue to deal with our enemies for oil. We'll continue to pay whatever price we must in blood and treasure to control them the best we can to control their oil. We'll continue to consider oil to be our only hope in maintaining our excellent living standards instead of looking seriously at a modified philosophy and alternative energy sources. And finally, we'll drill for all we can here there and everywhere. All the time arguing agressively about the right way to proceed.

Things are going to get tricky when other countries become as developed as we are and all of us begin to fight over the scraps.

I have a lot of hope for electric cars and better batteries in the future. Less commuting with better community planning and working at home. A new outlook of doing more with less. Solar, wind, hydro and nuclear plants. Possibly the Thoreum cycle nuclear plant that cannot produce weapons. We'll see, or should I say, our children's children will see.

XLR8R

Frankly, your underlying message & tone appears to be one of anti oil-based energy & pessimism... if that's the case, why are you partaking of the CTD world?

Shouldn't you walk out your principles by leading the way to a new lifestyle? If you disagree with our economy's use of oil, why don't you show us how to live without it by example?

BTW, it's not a rhetorical question... I've always strived to live by my principles. If you believe in it, you can and should do it!

Raspy

XLR8R,

I'm not anti oil at all. I am against sending our fortune to our enemies. And like it or not oil will not last forever. I know it will outlast all of us but we are also engaged in a lot of military adventures to enforce our oil interests. The overall cost is very high.

Drilling here would be fine with me but to replace 70% of our current useage with additional drilling here is a monumental project with finite results.

I drive a diesel partly to use less fuel than a gasser does, and me givng up my truck will not make a change in the overall national use. I'm talking about a new strategy that all of us can embrace. Call it pessimisic if you want, but show me how just drilling as you advocate will "solve" the worlds energy needs. I'd really like to know how it would and so would the rest of the population. Cheap perpetual energy from drilling here is not possible. And before it happens you'll have to join with me in convincing many people that it is the answer. A possible short term solution till we can get something else going? Yes. A message to our overseas supplers? Yes. But if it leads to complacency, as low prices do, it's no long term solution that leads to price stability. And I would be perfectly willing to seriously reduce our oil imports because I don't like war for oil or sending our fortune to our enemies. If you want to consider brotherhood consider the brotherhood of joining together in a national cause to shut down oil from our sworn enemies who use our money to produce weapons against us or thumb their noses at us yet expect us to protect them. But I won't join the brotherhood of American oil speculators that conspire to raise oil prices against their own countrymen. I want low prices just like everyone else.

Call me a pessimist if you wish, and no offense taken. But that is how I feel. Maybe you can lay out some details on what you are doing to promote your more drilling solution and explain how that will work. Where, how much, when, etc. I'm open to hear the details and learn something. Since you believe so strongly in it there must be more to it than I realize.

And by the way, I have been in the energy efficiency and solar industry for 30 years, so I am setting an example. It's just silly to think we cannot do better.

Thanks for your response.