During this, and other conversations, so many people are labeling others as "enviros" or "tree huggers" or some other derogatory stereotypes that really just set the stage to make or break an argument by appealing to only those with a general agreement or disagreement on the subject. Some appear to be so threatened by high mileage cars, like the Prius for example. Even some here have negative statements in their signatures about environmentalists.

It's not about "us vs them" with the environmentalists on one side and the common sense folks on the other side. It's not a small club of brothers against "the man". There is a lot of government mandated equipment on vehicles and a lot of disagreement on its value. A lot of profit motivation and political agendas. A lot of knee jerk reactions from people that only see a small picture. And a lot of general hatred on both sides that tilts arguments in every situation. Complain all you want about the government but it's a government that we set up and we can make into anything we want.

In a sense we are ALL environmentalists. Every one of us.

Anyone who claims to not be an environmentalist should also be in favor of dumping all nuclear waste into rivers and oceans to end the problem of storing it. Or in favor of just burning down all forests to save the trouble of putting out fires. Or just using their yard as a toilet and not bothering to treat sewage. They might also not see the problem with running an engine in a closed garage and breathing the air.

And I'm not implying that we are in danger of dying by running engines, we're not. I hate it when I must pay more for a more complicated engine that gets worse mileage and has less power, just as I hate it when the auto companies say they can't do better and threaten to lay off thousands if told to do so. The majority of car adds claim more power and different styling as the reason to buy one. Ridiculous. People seem to want lower 0-60 times and more bling. What about better mileage with more torque? Huh?, what's that? Not even a factor for most.

My point is that we are ALL environmentalists to a certain degree and so we are all on the same side and we all must find a way to survive together on this planet. Either way the planet will be fine for many millions of years. It's not about the planet it's about us humans. It's humans that are in danger from arguing and struggling and greed.

Given that, we need to really address the problems directly and honestly without hype. Reject those that have an obvious agenda like profit or job security, and look for practical solutions to the need for a lot of fuel, clean air and fewer global problems associated with it. A clear look at the true cost of fuels in terms of health, food costs, wars, the impact on normal daily life and the problems associated with continuously increasing consumption. It's not possible to produce our way out of the problem of needing more fuel. Simply not possible.

Quit the name calling when we are all on the same side and have the same basic needs. Lay out the pros and cons of each new idea and try the ones that seem good. Celebrate the efforts by some to find cheaper and cleaner ways to acheive mobility, warmth, food production and health. There's no reason to give up your Cummins and there's no reason to ridicule a car that gets 50 MPG. If food prices go way up because of fuel production from crops let's look at it and decide if that serves the general good. Should we really be giving billions to those that hate us overseas, for oil, so they can plot against us? Does it make sense to keep using more and more fuel?

OK, that's my rant for the day.


John

 

Excellent rant John

 

Here is something right from the horses mouth. I get the Cummins news letter.
Cummins Lubricity statement
I still put in PS white bottle. I ran bio in the summer but had too many FP issues while using it.

 

Raspy, your'e right for the most part, we should be on the same side, we did set up the government, and higher mileage is great. But, strict envirionmental policys inplace due to the gov't bowing to large special intrest groups have put a strangle hold on our homebased oil recovery and refining, the permit processes are so fraut with endless loops that "BIG" oil would rather not deal with it, same goes for nuke power. (which is one of the cleanest and safest sources we have, 25% of our power, 75% of frances) with common sense, we should be using our nations recources. Instead of blocking off the public lands to recource harvesting we should come up with common sense ways to use what we have not sit back and feel good that all of our coal and oil are safe in the ground. The loss of common sence seems to run the mega political landcape thesedays. You mentiond forest fires. When the USFS was born, it was to do a couple of things. Maintain the nations lumber supplies, make a profit through lumber sales, preserve the forests as a recource, provide for recreation. What do they do now? Fight fires? Destroy backcountry access (ie the roadless initiative) charge high campground fees (on campgrounds that were free my whole life) and still allow them to fall into disrepair. Allow millions of acres of burned forest to rot without harvest. Don't get me wrong I used to love the USFS, did my eagle project for them, rebuilt a campground that had not been maintained since the 50's. Even wanted to work for them. But they told me I would either fight fires(hard on the old bod) or need a 4 or more year degree in biology. They have become a fire department run by environmental impact administrators. Many other agencys are the smae way BLM, PARKS,. You also mentioned hybrids, I recently took a trip on the mother and laws Prius (way to small inside) the best mileage we got avg. was 43.6, my grandmas standard camry gets 45 highway. I just get mad when people claim somthing as the savior and try to ram it down our throats. Point fingers at us because our trucks are big and smoke. When the batteries in the prius cause more environmentel harm in their construction than a prius can ever offset, high mileage is a good thing, but don't tell me to get a hybrid or else, espeacialy when we have large untapped feul recources here. A TDI Jetta gets the same mileage as my moms prius. I am not saying we need to destroy the planet. But, we need to use it efectivley. There won't be one fix for the energy problems of this country, but let capitalism work, the gov't is ours, but it seems like the few overrule the many. regulation is not the answer. let freedom ring! let us use what God has given us. A clean world is in all of our best interests. But the histeria of many in this countrty I fear is slowly eroding our common sense, the debate is not over! The science is not settled. history has taught us that whenever it is claimed to be so, (ie flat earth) further reasearch can always shed more light. The earth is a living thing and has changed high or low many times over its life, Mt St Helens expelled more co2 and other green house gasses at one time than man has in history. I fear the gov't will bend to the wind and listen to the loudest voices, which right now do not have much common sense. jumping to conclusions based on histeria is never good. Look at Racheal Carson (Slent Sring) and the DDT fiasco. millions have died from malaria because there is no effective control, pine beetles have decimated our western forests, bed bugs are making a large comeback. and the facts she stated have been disproven recenltey. the actions of the few can affect the many, how many lives lost are on her hands? GIVE US DDT!! Look at wind power, the maintanance cost and lives of birds lost negate the apperant savings, but who in the mainstream has talked out agianst wind power? Look at solar, most peole think of solar as solar cells (they are on your house), but solar farms are reflectors that heat oil and transfer the oils heat to water and flash it to steam. they can be flammable and messy when they break. I think education is the key, be informed about both sides, make an informed choice, both sides call names I agree there, but I have seen more viciousness come from my oposition. How can we combat that? dirt with dirt is not the way, but turning the other cheek only gets so far. I do celebrate new fuels, but let the market bring them not regulation. As for OPEC it should be disbanded and the oil should flow free, energy supplys have always spurred progress. I feel sorry for Africa, the Environmentl protection advocates are trying to resctrict their futrue, let them use what they have. oil, coal, hydro, nuke, geothermal these are not dirty words but tools for humanitys prosperity. At any rate this thread has sure oppened up the dialogue. I don't think gasgano bargined for this. I geuss I will end my rant now. Hope I have'nt hurt anyones feelings, just presenting my veiws. God bless America!! And may we remain worthy of his blessing!!

 

I always thought that's what the Constitution was all about.

 

A government of the people by the people!

I said the few OVERRULE the many, the few are to govern the many based on what the many believe and want, not just personal agenda or the select lobbiests with deep pockets, take the recent immigration fiasco for example, the FEW tried to force it through in the shadows, when we got wind of it and the loss of votes became apperant, they changed their mind. How many obscure earmarks and pork, and cloak and dagger bills have slipped passed our noses, they have their own beliefs and agendas, did we elect them to declare the Armenian genocide? what about sending smear letters to private citizens? The constitution says our right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED! How many gun control bills before they call it infringment? What about regulation? Did the majority of America want the spotted owl habitat declared off limits? What about the Klamath sucker fish fiasco? The new immenant domain can take your land with the stroke of a pen. The system can work and its all we have, but IMO it is broken, judges run-a-muk, congress with unlimited terms in office, a bias media. Our country is great but it has its problems and they seem to get worse not better. How many here can say that our govt leaders have our best interest at heart? Our country is the greatest on the face of the earth, but if we don't stand for something we will fall for anything. Now I am getting deppressed and mad, better knock this off.

 

A Prius, Camry or other Hybrid car isnt the best choice for someone who drives mostly highway.They dont get better MPG's than there regular counterparts in most cases. But someone who uses their car around town will benifit the most this is where a hybrid shines and was its intended target consumer.

I myself would get a VW TDI before buying a Hybrid .They are less expensive not as complicated and get basicly the same mileage.

My neighbor runs 100% WVO in his old Mercedes diesel think its around 1983 vintage . All he does if filter it and in the wither he has some type of heated tank and lines so it doesnt gell on him. Smells like french fries when its running

In the short term CNG is a viable solution but there are few places that can refill them . long term hydrogen will be the main stay as GM as of today has released 100 to the public for real world testing in NYC, LA and Wasington DC.
http://www.trucktrend.com/features/n...uel_cell_fleet

 

In CNG vehicles, how many psi are the tanks? I'm trying to figure out if it would be the same for fuel-cell cars except that you'd fill the on-board storage tanks with hydrogen instead of propane or whatever. If it's the same, then I guess it's working. But with a tank of pressurized hydrogen under your car, it would feel like you're practically driving around with a bomb. lol...

I don't know where fuel-cells are going. The main problem I see is that it requires lots of energy to extract pure hydrogen. There was a fuel-cell car at my university though. It was pretty cool. It was a small Benz about the size of a Honda Civic. It cost $750,000.

 

The bottom line is....that no matter what direction is taken,the same people/companies will still be in control and we will be at their mercy![verymad Understand,the ethanol/corn fiasco is government mandated and you ain't seen inflation yet!