I just read where a guy on another Dodge web site used bottle pure hydrogen and could not see any improvement in fuel mileage. Now I see that we are to believe whgoose09 post that some HHO thing-ma-gig will give 20% more power and bottom end? I say BULL and bet the poster can not Prove or back up his claim. So if I set up some web site that claims Dog do do converted just right will increase HP will that me its true?

 

Indeed there truly is...as in your case you come in here and try to steal advertising for your product.

 

The only thing you were trying to help is the size of your wallet I get very aggravated with people that think they can log on to a forum like this and advertise their business by pretending to be someone else.

 

Save your time and money guys!

Basically the First Law of Thermodynamics says that neither matter nor energy can be created or destroyed (conservation of matter/energy), it can only be converted from one form to another. In other words you cannot get more energy out of a system (say your truck or the engine) than you put in. Essentially these HHO systems would have you getting more energy (mileage) out of the hydrogen than what it takes in energy to make the hydrogen.

The First LAW of Thermodynamics is one of the absolute physical laws of the universe. Everything in the entire universe is affected by this law. NO exceptions or contradictions to this law have ever been observed.

Now these systems will definitely produce hydrogen but no where near enough to really be useful. Also it will take more energy than you get back to make the hydrogen. Once again that pesky first law. Combustion efficiency can be improved in some cases but you would have to have very good control of the hydrogen system with the fuel injection system to see this. People that see mileage improvements are simply being more careful while they try out the new system and end up improving their mileage by just driving more efficiently.

This website has a pretty good description of all the issues associated with these systems. I especially like his way of describing the laws of thermodynamics.

http://www.slicknslack.com/2008/07/h...namics-stupid/

Wikipedia also has some pretty good information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroge...t#cite_note-11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water-f...r#cite_note-34

Basically save your time and money for more useful things to add to your truck.

 

Sorry but this subject and wasted money irritates me so here's some more engineering.

Let's do some fairly simple analysis of the use of hydrogen to replace of the diesel fuel and thereby increasing the mileage. The following analysis was not mine originally but I double checked all the data and it is correct.

Okay lets do some math just so it all helps the understanding of the problem.

You get 10 mpg and you want a 1 mpg improvement, sounds easy right? We are going 60 mph so we burn 6 gallons an hour.

Well you have to effectively add the equivalent power that 1/10 (6/10 per hour) of a gallon of fuel would provide (more or less). We will use Diesel fuel which on average has 130,000 BTU per gallon so we need to add 13,000 btu's of energy to the mix or 78,000 btu an hour to get the 1 mpg increase.

78,000 btu's burned per hour equal 30.627 horsepower or 22,839 watts per hour.

Pure Hydrogen at room temperature and pressure has an energy density of 0.01079 mj/l (mega joule/liter) and those 22,839 watts would require 82.222 mj of energy or are you sitting down - 7,620 liters of hydrogen per hour or just over 2 liters per second from the electrolysis system.

Some of the systems that are being sold claim to generate in the range of 10 liters per minute (0.167 liters per second). That's pretty good but still nowhere near what is needed.

A few of the numbers were rounded off but the potential error is very slight.

Good luck and if you feel the need to send someone money I'm ready to help. I'll even tell you what a great guy you are and how you've got a fantastic truck.

Seriously though, there are much better ways to improve mileage, some are even free such as adjusting the way you drive.

 

I've been watching this ridiculous thread/trend for years now, and am continually amazed that people are willing to throw common sense (and hard earned cash) right out the window and jump on this "add hydrogen for better MPG and power" bandwagon. This concept is soooo impossible, and yet there are endless folks who will get on here and swear that it works, and that their neighbor's uncle's friend's brother has a system that works flawlessly and they are getting 27 mpg on a truck that normally sees about 15 MPG! As you "MLRey" have just proven in black and white, it physically CANNOT work, as it BOLDLY defies the laws of physics! Why oh why are people still wasting their time and money, and vehemently arguing on this losing proposition is beyond my comprehension.

 

MLRey,

Great Post.

 

MLREY - You may want to be careful quoting me, you would not want too many people on here to know you agree with one of my posts. That said - Thanks for quoting one of my old posts, it is good to see some do see the light.

 

Andy, I couldn't remember who I quoted originally over a year ago when this was a hot topic but you definitely deserve the credit. This hydrogen myth never seems to die. There are real ways to improve mileage but this isn't one of them.

 

MLRey,

Excellent post.

MikeyB

 

Whether or not this works, most of the ways and means in this thread are not reasonable. Trying something like this on a Dodge Ram that has so many variables its nuts.

If there were any real advantage, it should be easy to prove on a small controlled experiment with an engine like a 5-10HP diesel unit with a fixed load. It would have to be extrapolated to a large engine application but it could be proven first. You can change consumption rates easily but it is only relevant if the HP and TQ remain the same. Just adjust your smarty jr, same thing. If you increased your mileage by 5% you probably don't see the resulting drop in power of 5%.

I'm not arguing the advancements that may be possible, combustion efficiency is a reasonable goal (I think H as a repacement fuel by generating your own is a pie in the sky), but trying to measure 0-5% on day to day driving and measured in a couple hundred miles looses all credibility to me. And claims of 40-50% gain is rediculous. That WOULD be front page news.

Yes, I read the whole thread.
Good luck to everyone though.

 

I guess some can't read or understand simple stuff, always have to complicate things.
Title of tread ADD HYDROGEN, not run on hydrogen. If we can adjust timeing and get 5% gains, why can't we add hydrogen and get improvements to? Kind or like a better gade of diesel.
Like has and is being said it's hard to verify a gain with continually variable conditions. Useing hydrogen does work, I don't know of anyone perfecting it for the varibles of my or most of our driveing conditions yet. I still "think" most people trying to use hydrogen on a diesel are useing to much hydrogen. A diesel runs very lean so why add a lot of hydrogen, if hydrogen makes what fuel is there burn better already. If you hadn't read and understand, I keep saying ADD HYDROGEN. The correct ratio is very important, I wish someone with time and the small engin could scientifically find the ratio and give us a reference point to start with atleast.

 

I am a mechanical engineer and simply what you've posted is all fine and dandy. Do you feel better to rehash what has been spewed 100,000 times? Please tell me how what you wrote describes or defines anything relating to the combustion efficiency effects? Oh, it doesn't.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you it does or doesn't work. But here is some food for thought. There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of these kits sold. Please direct me to the list of sites, blogs, threads and twitter comments from anyone who has done this first hand, and it didn't work in the least little bit. Given it's JUNK science, as so many here claim, then there should be thousands of blogs, threads and web sites with people complaining on how they spent $100-$3000 on a said system and it did not work. I searched some time ago and only found 1-2 people who had a fuel injected car and saw negative results because they didn't compensate and adjust the signal from the oxygen sensor due to the added oxygen.

 

I like the scientific data. If you improve diesel's emissions when you add hydrogen doesn't that also mean you are useing more of the diesel for btu's. Like it's been said before the improvement is not just the added hydrogen btu's but also improveing the use of the diesel btu's. That's why the emissions are so much less because you burned it instead of blowing it out the tail pipe. They say #2 diesel has 130k btu's per gallon, how many btu's are actually used? I know it varies since on truck gets 16mpg and another gets 20. If a truck getting 16mpg adds hydrogen and suddenly is getting 20 does that mean he added x amount of hydrogen or did the hydrogen just improve use of the existing diesel btu's?

 

I'm old school prove to me it works, if it worked as claimed we would have some hydrogen gizmo on every car and truck made, we don't so that must mean it does not work!