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Add hydrogen for better mpg

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Old 10-22-2005, 09:59 PM   #16  
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I'm not knocking this, but let me try to make some since of this, as I understand it from right now. Our trucks pull in 5.9L of air for every 2 revolutions of the crank.

So at idle (say 850 rpm), we're pulling 2,507.5 L of air every minute. Just sitting there at idle. That's a lot of air.

Now at 2,000 rpm, with boost equal to zero, we're pumping 5,900 L of air per minute. That's neglecting boost, so I imagine we're actually pumping much more air than that ... even more so towing (because there will be higher boost levels). That is A LOT OF AIR!

So you're trying to say that those itty bitty hydrogen bubbles that surface to the top of the water, get vacuumed into the intake, and from there into the engine, where that minute amount of hydrogen will expand when burnt, ARE going to have ANY SUBSTANTIAL IMPACT? I'm more than skeptical ... I'd like to think of some real funny smart a$$ things to say here, but I'm not that talented.

I don't doubt your fuel mileage has increased. But my uneducated guess is that it is because you wanted to believe it so bad that your actual driving habits changed/improved enough to create better fuel economy. And you have now convinced yourself that the 0.0000001 Liters of hydrogen produced from this chemical reaction, as compared to the 50,000 L of air (for example) has had some big effect.

I'm not a 'know it all.' Matter of fact, I'm just guessing here. But what I'm guessing about makes sense to me. I apologize if I sound like I'm attacking. That is not my intention. Prove me wrong. With 0.25 gallons of water and a few pinches of baking soda, how much hydrogen volume can you get from that? Seems like you'd empty that 1/4 gallon of water real fast if you were developing large volumes of hydrogen. And if the volumes of hydrogen are extremely small (like I expect they are) then how can you get any significant power from that amount.

The fuel savings would come from substituting diesel for hydrogen. I.E. you would not have to depress the accelerator pedal as far because the power pruduced by the hydrogen would make up for the lesser amount of diesel being supplied.

Show me where I'm wrong. Maybe that chemical process provides huge volumes of hydrogen. Or maybe 1 unit of hydrogen is friggen 10,000 times more powerful than an equivalent unit volume of diesel fuel. I don't know. But I am VERY skeptical.

- JyRO
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Old 10-22-2005, 10:09 PM   #17  
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Catalyzation by the use of hydrogen has been a common mileage booster for years. It is just a royal pain in the donkey to fool around with the electrolysis system and keep it all working. Input air saturation by use of low pressure propane does the same thing, as does adding 2.5 ounces of Acetone to each ten gallons of diesel.

The entire principle is based on the ability of the lighter and more active hydrogen (or in the case of propane or Acetone, a light hydrocarbon gas) molecule chemically "cracking" the covalent bonds of the heavier diesel hydrocarbon molecules. This makes for better fuel vaporization at injection.

If in doubt, try the Acetone method for a couple of tanks, and watch your mileage go up by as much as 30% with no other timing, or pulse width changes. If you are creative, and tweak your timing on the older Cummins, or pulse width managment software on the newer rigs, your mileage can increase significantly more than the 30%.
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Old 10-22-2005, 10:26 PM   #18  
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I like skeptics because I'm one too. I don't know all the scientific facts like you, do so I had to do some digging on the net and asked anyone I knew that had a sciece or chemistry back ground. If you can add a little propane and get peformance and mpg why not water meth or hydrogen? In what little information I've read it said some thing about hydrogen being three times more powerfull than gas per volume. I'm new to this forum thing but I have noticed some people just say whats on their mind but don't do any reading or digging for info. When I first started this project I didn't know how to set it up so I've gone through about 10 different containment devises so far and hope to improve on it some more. If I was able to I would take pictures and show them. Or I could sell you my plans and swear you to secrecy for a few dollars.
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Old 10-22-2005, 10:40 PM   #19  
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Sounds like you are trying to identify a solution, so nose around the web and investigate the hydrogen enrichment being proposed by DC as smog control. DC is trying to convince the US Government that their use of a proprietary halide based catalyst is the ultimate pollution solution. The technology is a more complex (spell that more profitable for DC) solution to what you are trying to accomplish with your electrolysis process, and relies on a disposable canister of their "magic formula."

I am a rather simple guy, and if I can solve the efficiency problem with cheap Acetone, why pay for more complexities?

Regarding you meth solution, I presume you are talking about methanol, and that has a less active heavy alcohol molecule than either hydrogen or hydrocarbon gases. So, it will depress combustion, but can be mixed with water to create a mixture that cools the combustion process and allows both richer fuel mixtures (much more power) and increased combustion control (same as boosting cetane ratings on the fuel). As we all know, if you cool the burn and boost the fuel rate, and develop more combustion pressure, you can increase fuel economy by running in higher gears. So, the ultimate acomplishment can be the same.

Methane, or compressed natural gas, will do exactly as propane only better as it has an even lighter and more active molecule. The problem is that seven gallons equivalent of CNG requires as much space as 15 gallons of propane, and access to a commercial fuel compressor station.
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Old 10-22-2005, 10:55 PM   #20  
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I like simple too. Two electrods in some water with an electrolite. Contained with a tube to the intake. Comes on when you turn on the ignition. 20% better fuel mileage. I was hopeing for more like everyone 80mpg. You would have to inject it to get that. It is simple to build once you know how to there for the plans for $$ NOT my idea was to find something that was simple and cheep water so far and baking soda. Hope fully spread the info so that we all could save some fuel. Of course I could sell it right and you couldn't tell anyone right.
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Old 10-23-2005, 03:28 AM   #21  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCW
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If in doubt, try the Acetone method for a couple of tanks, and watch your mileage go up by as much as 30% with no other timing, or pulse width changes. If you are creative, and tweak your timing on the older Cummins, or pulse width managment software on the newer rigs, your mileage can increase significantly more than the 30%.
I was wondering what year CTD you own as your signature is blank? We are all very interested in better MPG's at todays prices. I do recall the last energy crisis when OPEC gave us a good squeeze in the seventies. Remember also how the domestic auto manufactures changed focus to more fuel efficient motors and Japan auto sales took off. What the heck was I getting at? I know and have used acetone as a industrial solvent in the past for tough nasty problems. My concern is, could 2.5 oz per 35 gal do any harm to a 3rd gen CTD ( o-rings,plastic fuel tank, rubber hoses,injectors etc) ?
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Old 10-23-2005, 07:26 AM   #22  
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Boatnik,
Were you operating out of Apra Harbor when the oxygen generator blew? I was attached to the Proteus for a couple of months until my boat came off patrol in Sep '70(624 (G)). I remember getting extended on patrol a couple of time due to the Monroe having "issues". Ahhhhh, good old Andy's Hut, Joe's and Flo's, and the **** fights.

tearsintheeyesfromthememoriesShortround out
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Old 10-23-2005, 07:28 AM   #23  
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Ain't that weird
Got edited for the name of a male rooster type chicken with an attitude.
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Old 10-23-2005, 07:49 AM   #24  
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The reason the car makers have not gone with this is due to the corrosive effect of hydrogen on metal. Pure H2 will corrod the interior of your engine and do some long term damage, so any savings you get from doing this will go away with the purchase of a new engine.

BMW is trying to make this work though and does currently hold the world land speed record for a hydrogen powered car with a V12 hydrogen engine.

Now this is running pure hydrogen oxigen mix through your engine (which is fesable) not a mix of regular fuel and hydrogen, so you engine may last long enough for it to be financially sound.
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Old 10-23-2005, 08:05 AM   #25  
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That's a new one for me where did you find that info about hydrogen eating up an engine? None of the science or chemists that I have contacted mentioned anything about hydrogen being corossive. They all wanted to know the results of what I found so they could use it themselves. Seems kind of odd that they would over look that.
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Old 10-23-2005, 08:12 AM   #26  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortround
Boatnik,
Were you operating out of Apra Harbor when the oxygen generator blew? I was attached to the Proteus for a couple of months until my boat came off patrol in Sep '70(624 (G)). I remember getting extended on patrol a couple of time due to the Monroe having "issues". Ahhhhh, good old Andy's Hut, Joe's and Flo's, and the **** fights.

tearsintheeyesfromthememoriesShortround out
Aw! Andre's Haseinda....Andy's hut started out as two trash cans full of ice and fermaldahide laced beer. Don't sit on the wall by the water or the fire ants will get ya. Sept. 1970 to April 1973. I was a nuke on the Hale. Blue crew. The gold crew had the problem while on patrol just prior to coming to the West coast in early '70 if my memory serves me right. I was their when the Proteus got under way on her own power. Well for a little ways. The Hunley came in to replace her while we were out. I was 20 years old then.
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Old 10-23-2005, 08:18 AM   #27  
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Ain't that weird
Got edited for the name of a male rooster type chicken with an attitude.
Must be a political thing. I hate political correctness. If you don't like the way I talk, don't listen. Your feet shouldn't be nailed to the floor. But on the same token I don't cuss in front of kids or my mother. Now at work, that is another story. I just can't forget all those neat colorful Navy phrases.
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Old 10-23-2005, 08:21 AM   #28  
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no research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tree DR
I like skeptics because I'm one too. I don't know all the scientific facts like you, do so I had to do some digging on the net and asked anyone I knew that had a sciece or chemistry back ground. If you can add a little propane and get peformance and mpg why not water meth or hydrogen? In what little information I've read it said some thing about hydrogen being three times more powerfull than gas per volume. I'm new to this forum thing but I have noticed some people just say whats on their mind but don't do any reading or digging for info.
Did I just say what is on my mind? Yes. And even admitted to it. At 3 times the power, heck even at 10 times the power, I would think you'd have to have significant amounts of hydrogen. I still don't think that 1/4 gallon of water and a few pinches of baking soda are going to produce enough hydrogen to have a measurable effect on fuel mileage. I agree this reaction will produce hydrogen, but I just can't see this system being large enough to produce effective amounts of hydrogen. I have been wrong once before ... I think.

I guess I'm off to the university to do research on hydrogen reactions and get my PhD on the subject. Maybe it'll be OK if I post after that? Hehehehe. I'm only joking around.
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Old 10-23-2005, 08:22 AM   #29  
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So you are saying that if I or anyone could seperate hydogen and oxygen and then introduce them to each other in the cylinder of our motors they would spontaniously combust that would be cool wouldn't it. Maybe all the chemists and sientists that I have talked to were wrong?
Not exactly. I am saying that when just hydrogen and oxygen meet in the right concentration they will do so violently and spontaneously. I am only offering caution and experience. Do what you want.
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Old 10-23-2005, 09:29 AM   #30  
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Do you have to dye the hydrogen green for "on road" use???!!!!
Hey TreeDr my other post here was intended to be a slap at our wonderful, shortsighted "taxing authorities" in this country. In all honesty though, if you make this work somehow, you'd better expect a knock on your door from someone from the government who is "there to help you"!!! I do agree with JyRO however; that with my way of thinking that it would take much more water in your set-up to allow much more hydrogen burned to make a major improvement in our mileage in these trucks. No offense intended!!!
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