CharGriller

I know by experience some may not read this due to it’s length but “Oh well”.

I’m posting this idea on some other forums to see if somebody has heard of somebody I could talk with that’s done it or maybe post a link that might lead me where it’s been done. So while Googling for more info I came across this forum also.

What a huge pool of diesel knowledge! This is sorta complicated and hard to write out in a short post so I’ll try to keep it simple. I have an older 1989 F-250 gasser that I want to make into a Cummins. I am looking at a few options.

Option # 1. Is the route everybody seems to follow and maybe that alone is reason enough not to consider option # 2. I feel both options one and two have sub-options by considering Gen 1, 2, and 3 into the mix.

The use of the truck would be primarily to carry my pickup camper while towing a two horse slant horse trailer. The top performance gauge I would like to be able to obtain with the end product would be to tow my 10,000 GVW bumper pull, hay trailer up a five mile long, fairly straight (subtle curves) 6 % grade, at sixty miles an hour with out any strain. With no less than fourth gear, in a manual transmission.

I would prefer to stay 100% stock or as close as possible to that ideal. I would like the above power demo to also allow great fuel mileage. I would be hoping 14 - 18 mpg loaded, to approx 20 or low 20’s unloaded? Do able? Reasonable? Chime in.

Now for the controversy. Given that option # 1. Would be to transplant a 94-98 12v, w/Nv4500 five speed into the bones and skin of my 1989 F-250 XLT 4x4, as so many others have already done. Along with all the associated adapter (s), and possibly suspension, and brake upgrades.

Option two …would be to purchase a salvage 1998 12v with Nv4500, and strip totaled sheet metal cab and bed and graft my Ford cab and bed on to Dodge frame, engine and running gear?

Nobody yet has encouraged me on option # 2.? Everyone wants me to go with number one. And that is a viable option. But…I’m not convinced that option # 2. Is without merit given best case scenario. So please feel free to think # 2. Over and raise BOTH the pros and cons that you believe this option would /could present.

This given that the salvage would have an intact unbent frame and engine that starts and runs. Thanks in advance for reading and commenting.

Dieselbuilder

Less work on engine swap had done three fords only thing is you need to use smaller inter-cooler

Alwaysworking

its easier to put the cummins in the ford then to switch bodies,
then you also retain the ford high pinion dana 60front with dual pistion front calipers and out board drums.
also i feel that the fords ride better than dodges.
and the ford will have front and rear leaf springs where as the dodge has non unlockable front hubs on a twin control arm front end with coil springs

Tate

An 89 F-250 (if 4x4) will have the D50 TTB front end. Only the F-350's after 86 got the D60 (I'm excluding the trucks of the 70's). Ford will likely have a Sterling 10.25 rear end. The dodge will have a d80, significantly beefier. The dodge running gear is superior to the Fords (IMO), so option two isn't that bad. The downside would be having to make the cab work with all the rest of the truck, instead of just swapping in an engine and being done with it. The benifit to option two is you could go from 2wd to 4x4, or vice versa, depending on what you want.

Alwaysworking

if you find a whole 5speed truck it will have a dana 80 autos didn't,
i forgot about the f250s being different 10.25 is plenty strong slighly bigger than a d70.

i got my dana 60front for my project out of an 85 f350.

didn't some of the f250 also have the i peice front axle too or where they all pre broken?

Tate

Pre-80 F-250's (along with f-150) were solid axles. 77.5-79 F-250 had high pinion D44's, and optional D60 with the heavier GVWR. 77 and older had low pinion D44 and D60's, the d60's were closed knuckle with weaker parts, comparable to a d44.

wannadiesel

I wouldn't want the 2nd gen Dodge front end with all its steering issues over the Ford setup you have. Stick with the engine swap idea or put your Ford body on a Dodge 1st gen chassis. 1st gen Dodge has leaves all around and an NP205 transfer case.

The body swap idea does have some merit, especially if the Ford has an inconveniently low axle ratio like 4.56. For the kind of mileage you want to see, 3.54's or even 3.07's will be necessary.

WWWD? Keep the Ford body and frame together and swap in a 12 valve (1st or 2nd gen, depending on what I could find), a 5 speed (NV4500 or Getrag, again depends on what's out there), a NP205 out of a 1st gen, and a set of 3.07 axles off an early automatic 1st gen. I would tweak the pump to make the power needed, you are asking an awful lot from the stock rating with that loaded hill climb. Either a 1st or 2nd gen 12 valve will be able to do it with some pump tweaking, won't cost much if anything. You're gonna have to play with the timing to get the mileage you're after, so you might as well...

lews930

I concur with Wannadiesel. The Dodge has issues with the steering. I never resolved mine completely even after replacing everything in the front end. I do prefer the ride of the Dodge over my Ford(it feels more like a truck)

If you can find a complete Dodge 2nd gen that would be the ticket. As stated earlier just a small i/c and your done. Mostly

Tate

For pulling a 10k trailer up a 5 mile 6% grade in 4th, I think 3.54 would be the tallest he would want to go. Assuming a 32" tire, 60 mile an hour would be around 2200 rpm in 4th. He'd be at 1900 rpm with the 3.07's. For ease on engine (and less EGT), run higher rpm.

The NP205 out of a 1st gen dodge won't work regardless of that path he takes. If its gonna be a 205, it needs to be a Ford unit, driver side drop. That being said, not sure why everyone wants to ditch the 241 in favour of the 205. Sure, the 205's are beef, but the 241 has a better low range, and lets face it, its already attached to a nv4500, and its not like they are blowing up constantly. Guys are sled pulling and drag racing with good power, and they are surviving quite well. For pulling a trailer in 2wd, I don't see the benifit.

CharGriller

This is exactly the kinds of information and discussion I was hoping for! You guys are a gold mine. Thank you, sharing your knowledge and your comments ARE appreciated.

Under the skin of my 1989 F-250 is a 460 EFI w/117,000 approx miles. I have a five speed transmission and it’s a 4x4, w/ manual locking hubs. It has the HD tow option package that was available for it’s time. I have been told it has the heavy duty alternator, radiator, and an small oil cooler radiator, for the transmission. Everything is original and the engine has never been touched except for oxygen sensors, and a A/c pump. Okay, I’ve replaced ignition wires, and all the other necessary items that are expected to wear and are necessary for my truck to be well maintained. I’ve owned the truck and maintained it since 1990 when I bought it used with 22,000 on the odometer. It appears this truck was manufactured in Canada if that’s any help.

I was given a web site resource called fordCummins.com. Looking under their swap for this rig they seem to say the F-250 transmission just needs an adapter to mate with the Cummins. If I swap can I retain my tranny, and transfer case or is that not a good idea? If I were able to retain it would I need to install a much larger clutch to transfer the greater torque of the Cummins?

Can anybody tell me what axels, trans, and transfer case I might have under my Ford or would you need numbers off the units themselves before you could say. If possible I would like to use the running gear off my Ford to save $$ but not at the expense of inviting trouble for myself down the road. I don’t want to go overboard on planning this rig, but I don’t want to “Rube Goldberg” it either. I’d like to have a good looking Ford F-250 with a Cummins that will just do the small jobs I have for it in a professional and reliable manner.

I'm going to figure out how to post pictures in that Gallery thingy, and then post some pics of my twenty year old F-250, with her and the camper, horse trailer and maybe with a load of hay on my new hay trailer. She still looks and runs pretty good.

PS- I've seen the word "GetRag" on other threads when speaking of a tranny....what is it? Thanks

Alwaysworking

i would not use the zf-5speed due to the case aluminium case, i dont think its a strong transmission.
the getrag is an all cast iron case 5speed overdrive with all of the gears in the same case,
another transmission you will run across in your searches is the nv4500 with is an okay trans, if you fix it before it breaks, they have issues and 5th gear is in a different housing, its basicly a 4 speed with and overdrive bolted to it.

Alwaysworking

PM sent.....

CharGriller

So my four speed with 5th over drive is really what's called a ZF-5 speed? It's aluminum casing doesn't make it a good candidate for a Cummins swap. You didn't mention if the cast iron cased "GetRag" (is that a real name?) has any of it's own problems?

The NV4500 seems to have been in a number of the older Dodges so shouldn't be too hard to find. But what about the Getrag tranny? Where or what makes or models are they found?

Also how is my transfer case in my Ford? Of course I don't use it in 2wd, but I need it in winter and I also use the four low option sometimes without putting in the hubs for crawling around when I want to back my trailer into a tight place or at times like that.

Also have a few pics of her now in that Gallery thingy. But compared to everybody else's pics. She's just another Ford. My hats off to the 'how to post pics" in the newbie thread. So easy a cave man could do it!

Alwaysworking

the getrag needs nothing in my experiance, just oil, and reshimmed every now and then, yes its a real name, came factory in 1st gen dodges with the cummins.
i dont think the zf-5 is stong enought du to case streach, aluminum cant take the load, you have 2 gears pushing the case appart when powering it.

i dont know what t-case is in that year of ford.
pics of one of my getrags
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/l...s/DSCF5028.jpg

Tate

Aren't the getrags getting fairly scarce? Getrags have their problems too, nothing is perfect. I think the NV4500/NV241 would fit your bill since they are already go into the ford with no adapters, you won't need to source a later dodge or ford t-case like you will with the getrag.

Your ford will have the D50 TTB (could even have the D44 TTB depending on GVWR). Could have either the sterling 10.25, D60 or D70, they were still mixing and matching in those days. T-case might be an NP208, but more likely a borgwarner unit. What model, I can't say. I'd imagine they'd have a tag on it like the New Process/New Venture units.