Xillarader is Visible!
Banned
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Where hell freezes over.
You need to be updated on whats going on. There alot more to it than just hooking up your DBR scan tool.
Not going to argue with the na sayers. Do what you want. It's your truck but DC's warranty.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 798
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From: Northern VA
Let's get to the heart of the matter here.
A "box" modifies the signal from one of a few sensors (fuel pressure or manifold absolute pressure) to trick the truck into thinking something - either fuel, boost, or timing - isn't being delivered at enough quantity or at the right time. So the ECU compensates accordingly, thinking that it is running within stock parameters. The key here is that the ECU won't do anything it thinks is not within stock parameters, so it will never record anything out of stock parameters.
Example: a boost fooler intercepts the voltage coming off the MAP sensor. Let's say a 1-volt signal from the sensor is interpreted by the ECU as meaning "10 pounds of boost". The fooler will modify the signal to read .5-volts, which tells the ECU "there's only 5 pounds of boost being made... keep the wastegate closed!" This fooling goes on until the STOCK parameter for opening the wastegate is met, so the ECU then opens the wastegate as per what it thinks is the STOCK parameter. The difference is that the ECU was fooled, so the turbo was really making 45psi of boost instead of 35psi because of the modified signal.
How is that going to be detected? The ECU never recorded anything but stock parameters.
In comparison, a "downloader" replaces the stock code on the ECU with modified code. New fuel maps, new boost maps, new timing curves, etc. are downloaded to the ECU itself. This is detectable because the parameters themselves have changed, and a software mod has been done to the system.
The question with downloaders is - how are the not detected? That depends on the quality of the downloader, and how thoroughly the manufacturer designed the modifications to be undetectable when "reverted back to stock".
I wouldn't bet my warranty on that... which is why I stick with a simple fueling box only, and don't even use it that much to save wear and tear.
A "box" modifies the signal from one of a few sensors (fuel pressure or manifold absolute pressure) to trick the truck into thinking something - either fuel, boost, or timing - isn't being delivered at enough quantity or at the right time. So the ECU compensates accordingly, thinking that it is running within stock parameters. The key here is that the ECU won't do anything it thinks is not within stock parameters, so it will never record anything out of stock parameters.
Example: a boost fooler intercepts the voltage coming off the MAP sensor. Let's say a 1-volt signal from the sensor is interpreted by the ECU as meaning "10 pounds of boost". The fooler will modify the signal to read .5-volts, which tells the ECU "there's only 5 pounds of boost being made... keep the wastegate closed!" This fooling goes on until the STOCK parameter for opening the wastegate is met, so the ECU then opens the wastegate as per what it thinks is the STOCK parameter. The difference is that the ECU was fooled, so the turbo was really making 45psi of boost instead of 35psi because of the modified signal.
How is that going to be detected? The ECU never recorded anything but stock parameters.
In comparison, a "downloader" replaces the stock code on the ECU with modified code. New fuel maps, new boost maps, new timing curves, etc. are downloaded to the ECU itself. This is detectable because the parameters themselves have changed, and a software mod has been done to the system.
The question with downloaders is - how are the not detected? That depends on the quality of the downloader, and how thoroughly the manufacturer designed the modifications to be undetectable when "reverted back to stock".
I wouldn't bet my warranty on that... which is why I stick with a simple fueling box only, and don't even use it that much to save wear and tear.
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,660
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From: Florida
O.K. all of you that "have a buddy", and "have a cousin" and so on and so on, need to get the info straight up. I was a shop foreman at a middle sized Dodge dealer for 6 years. I dealt mostly with the diesels and also most of the electrical problems and driveablilty. There is no special program that Dodge has, or any one else for that matter, to prove you have had a "box" on the truck. Programmer? YES! Box? NO! I have dealt with tier 3 engineers at Chrysler on certain troubles and asked them specifically. One I trusted with my life, and I STILL have his personal cell # ! You can believe what you want, but this info is first hand. Not from a buddy, or cousin, but ME! Take it for what it is worth. I have a DRBIII and have looked at parameters both with and without my Quad box on the truck, and just as quad claims, they "hide" or "fool" the things that Dodge would be looking for. Nothing left in memory, because nothing was ever there to begin with! Anyway, I am still a firm believer that if you play you pay, but they have to prove it first!
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,660
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Let's get to the heart of the matter here.
A "box" modifies the signal from one of a few sensors (fuel pressure or manifold absolute pressure) to trick the truck into thinking something - either fuel, boost, or timing - isn't being delivered at enough quantity or at the right time. So the ECU compensates accordingly, thinking that it is running within stock parameters. The key here is that the ECU won't do anything it thinks is not within stock parameters, so it will never record anything out of stock parameters.
Example: a boost fooler intercepts the voltage coming off the MAP sensor. Let's say a 1-volt signal from the sensor is interpreted by the ECU as meaning "10 pounds of boost". The fooler will modify the signal to read .5-volts, which tells the ECU "there's only 5 pounds of boost being made... keep the wastegate closed!" This fooling goes on until the STOCK parameter for opening the wastegate is met, so the ECU then opens the wastegate as per what it thinks is the STOCK parameter. The difference is that the ECU was fooled, so the turbo was really making 45psi of boost instead of 35psi because of the modified signal.
How is that going to be detected? The ECU never recorded anything but stock parameters.
In comparison, a "downloader" replaces the stock code on the ECU with modified code. New fuel maps, new boost maps, new timing curves, etc. are downloaded to the ECU itself. This is detectable because the parameters themselves have changed, and a software mod has been done to the system.
The question with downloaders is - how are the not detected? That depends on the quality of the downloader, and how thoroughly the manufacturer designed the modifications to be undetectable when "reverted back to stock".
I wouldn't bet my warranty on that... which is why I stick with a simple fueling box only, and don't even use it that much to save wear and tear.
A "box" modifies the signal from one of a few sensors (fuel pressure or manifold absolute pressure) to trick the truck into thinking something - either fuel, boost, or timing - isn't being delivered at enough quantity or at the right time. So the ECU compensates accordingly, thinking that it is running within stock parameters. The key here is that the ECU won't do anything it thinks is not within stock parameters, so it will never record anything out of stock parameters.
Example: a boost fooler intercepts the voltage coming off the MAP sensor. Let's say a 1-volt signal from the sensor is interpreted by the ECU as meaning "10 pounds of boost". The fooler will modify the signal to read .5-volts, which tells the ECU "there's only 5 pounds of boost being made... keep the wastegate closed!" This fooling goes on until the STOCK parameter for opening the wastegate is met, so the ECU then opens the wastegate as per what it thinks is the STOCK parameter. The difference is that the ECU was fooled, so the turbo was really making 45psi of boost instead of 35psi because of the modified signal.
How is that going to be detected? The ECU never recorded anything but stock parameters.
In comparison, a "downloader" replaces the stock code on the ECU with modified code. New fuel maps, new boost maps, new timing curves, etc. are downloaded to the ECU itself. This is detectable because the parameters themselves have changed, and a software mod has been done to the system.
The question with downloaders is - how are the not detected? That depends on the quality of the downloader, and how thoroughly the manufacturer designed the modifications to be undetectable when "reverted back to stock".
I wouldn't bet my warranty on that... which is why I stick with a simple fueling box only, and don't even use it that much to save wear and tear.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
From: Northern VA
Maybe on the new trucks there are a few sets of sensors for every subsystem - that way if one sensor signal is modified, the other sensor will report the actual value and the ECU will freak out.
DTR's 'Go to Guy'
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,811
Likes: 4
From: Indiana
Been 2 yrs. since working at the dealer. HOWEVER.....I am still a mechanic for an entire fleet of Dodge vehicles and still have all access to the same equipment and everything as a Dodge dealership, AND have the ability to warranty items as if I WAS a dealer! Only on our fleet vehicles though, but still.......think what you will and do what you want. Just don't trust info that came from a buddy, friend of a friend ect. YOUR dealer may be different, and stories GROW everytime they are passed on! LOL
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,660
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From: Florida
No, this problem is on the 5.9's. It was recently discovered that TST and the new VA C5 boxes won't work on '06.5+. It's been said the TST will melt pistons while showing normal EGT's.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 798
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From: Northern VA
Wowee... sorry for the guys who had to find this out the hard way. I thought you made a typo and were talking about the 07.5+. Got any links to dicusssion on this?
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,660
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From: Florida
Been 2 yrs. since working at the dealer. HOWEVER.....I am still a mechanic for an entire fleet of Dodge vehicles and still have all access to the same equipment and everything as a Dodge dealership, AND have the ability to warranty items as if I WAS a dealer! Only on our fleet vehicles though, but still.......think what you will and do what you want. Just don't trust info that came from a buddy, friend of a friend ect. YOUR dealer may be different, and stories GROW everytime they are passed on! LOL
Any info on the ECM differences?
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,660
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From: Florida
Here's a link to a warning post on another forum.
DTR's 'Go to Guy'
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,811
Likes: 4
From: Indiana
CAN Diagnostics and a little more info is available, but really more to do with logic and what the ecm "expects" to see and such. Thats why a lot of the codes that the programmers are setting are the rationality codes. Other than that, I don't know how Dodge would be able to "see" if a box was on the vehicle, just because of the way they are designed to work.
Registered User
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 419
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From: Concord, CA
LOL, (Black helicopter, I put on my tin foil hat)
Yes, a dealer can guess if you have a box/module.
They can download a full history and see your making 30 PSI of boost, and 23k inj psi at 10% throttle, but guess what, it don't mean squat.
To them they know the engine is working harder/ over fueling at less throttle, but that does not prove it got a chip on it. It just means its working harder then normal. nothing else.
The othe tell tale is people leaving velcro or something else behind where that box was mounted.
For the programmers, all that software has a copyright on it, and is visable from a PC, but I don't know how the one like the Bulldog, if they over write that field, or just leave it null. But its still date stamped.
Yes, a dealer can guess if you have a box/module.
They can download a full history and see your making 30 PSI of boost, and 23k inj psi at 10% throttle, but guess what, it don't mean squat.
To them they know the engine is working harder/ over fueling at less throttle, but that does not prove it got a chip on it. It just means its working harder then normal. nothing else.
The othe tell tale is people leaving velcro or something else behind where that box was mounted.
For the programmers, all that software has a copyright on it, and is visable from a PC, but I don't know how the one like the Bulldog, if they over write that field, or just leave it null. But its still date stamped.
DTR's 'Go to Guy'
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,811
Likes: 4
From: Indiana
Really!? Maybe YOU can educate me then. Other than the StarScan tool, just what else is new? What more is there to it? I AM quite "up on the times" and keep myself educated and informed. I work with these things everyday. Yes the DRB is applicable to my personal truck, but I am still well versed with the StarScan as well. What do YOU use? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you seem to act as if because it has been 2 years, that I am "out of the loop" as far as information goes. I beg to differ.
Registered User
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,452
Likes: 1
From: Nebraska
Really!? Maybe YOU can educate me then. Other than the StarScan tool, just what else is new? What more is there to it? I AM quite "up on the times" and keep myself educated and informed. I work with these things everyday. Yes the DRB is applicable to my personal truck, but I am still well versed with the StarScan as well. What do YOU use? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you seem to act as if because it has been 2 years, that I am "out of the loop" as far as information goes. I beg to differ.
To everyone else.
Again. Everyone says they have to PROVE it. That's not exactly the case. If they tell you they think you've had a box/module/whaterver on it and they aren't going to work on your problem under warranty, what are you going to do about it? Nothing. There is nothing you can do.
Banned
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,660
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From: Florida
To everyone else.
Again. Everyone says they have to PROVE it. That's not exactly the case. If they tell you they think you've had a box/module/whaterver on it and they aren't going to work on your problem under warranty, what are you going to do about it? Nothing. There is nothing you can do.
Again. Everyone says they have to PROVE it. That's not exactly the case. If they tell you they think you've had a box/module/whaterver on it and they aren't going to work on your problem under warranty, what are you going to do about it? Nothing. There is nothing you can do.
They can refuse to work on your truck because they don't like your shoe laces...and there's nothing you can do to change it. Sure you can get an attorney and fight them, but if you actually did win, would you even want them working on your truck against their will?
