Whats the skinny on water meth?
12-04-2006, 11:17 PM
#1
Banned
Thread Starter
Whats the skinny on water meth?
Ive never been a fan of anything besides diesel runing through my truck but after reading some recent post i thought id ask. I saw a member on here saying water meth is very beneficial to the life of your engine. Ive heard water meth raises drive pressure(i think thats the term im looking for). I also know that with my stock turbo as my small fan in my twin setup im already high on drive pressure, so would this be beneficial to me? What mixtures are actually safe? What are the pros/cons?
12-05-2006, 03:46 PM
#4
Administrator
acook:
I think the member you mention in another thread was possibly Don M?
I run water injection in my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve, but I am not mixing any methanol with that. I run straight distilled water right out of the grocery store and add a small amount of water "lubricant" to keep out the rust etc. in my water pump and engine. I do not run the methanol in my Cummins 12 valve engine because of the mechanical "static" timing. I tried mixing about a 20% methanol solution once and experienced bad detonation problems! However, this does not seem to be a problem on the 3rd Gens because of the variable electronic timing. I know that DTR Member "masonic-dodge" has the Snow System on his 2005 and it has definitely helped his power and performance.
The Scheid Diesel Water System I have now is alot different from the "Snow Type" System I had previously. It is more expensive and more complicated, but the system uses nozzles which are machined right into the head and inject the water almost right into the cylinders versus in the air horn or air intake hoses. Without water injection on my 96' Dodge 12 valve, I can easily hit 1700-1800 degrees under hard WOT conditions!
However, with the water on, the truck will barely hit 1300 degrees, so the "cooling effect" of my system is pretty amazing. My older Snow type system also cooled the EGT's very well but not as substantially as what I have now.
Some points to think about with water and or water/meth. injection are:
- Water injection slows combustion thus delaying peak cylinder pressure.
- Water/methanol injection slows combustion if cylinder temperatures are too
low, but increase the combustion rate when cylinder temperatures are high
- The experts on this subject feel that methanol when combusted with diesel
contributes to power as evidenced by increased heat release and peak
combustion pressures. Diesel fuel in combination with methanol seems to
act a catalyst to "light off" the methanol as higher heat is needed for
methanol combustion.
I hope this has helped you some. As I said, in my 96' with the fueling and air I have, I could NOT run hard without the water injection! Maybe some of the guys with 3rd Gen's equipped with water/meth injection will add to this.
Good luck.
--------
John_P
I think the member you mention in another thread was possibly Don M?
I run water injection in my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve, but I am not mixing any methanol with that. I run straight distilled water right out of the grocery store and add a small amount of water "lubricant" to keep out the rust etc. in my water pump and engine. I do not run the methanol in my Cummins 12 valve engine because of the mechanical "static" timing. I tried mixing about a 20% methanol solution once and experienced bad detonation problems! However, this does not seem to be a problem on the 3rd Gens because of the variable electronic timing. I know that DTR Member "masonic-dodge" has the Snow System on his 2005 and it has definitely helped his power and performance.
The Scheid Diesel Water System I have now is alot different from the "Snow Type" System I had previously. It is more expensive and more complicated, but the system uses nozzles which are machined right into the head and inject the water almost right into the cylinders versus in the air horn or air intake hoses. Without water injection on my 96' Dodge 12 valve, I can easily hit 1700-1800 degrees under hard WOT conditions!
However, with the water on, the truck will barely hit 1300 degrees, so the "cooling effect" of my system is pretty amazing. My older Snow type system also cooled the EGT's very well but not as substantially as what I have now.Some points to think about with water and or water/meth. injection are:
- Water injection slows combustion thus delaying peak cylinder pressure.
- Water/methanol injection slows combustion if cylinder temperatures are too
low, but increase the combustion rate when cylinder temperatures are high
- The experts on this subject feel that methanol when combusted with diesel
contributes to power as evidenced by increased heat release and peak
combustion pressures. Diesel fuel in combination with methanol seems to
act a catalyst to "light off" the methanol as higher heat is needed for
methanol combustion.
I hope this has helped you some. As I said, in my 96' with the fueling and air I have, I could NOT run hard without the water injection! Maybe some of the guys with 3rd Gen's equipped with water/meth injection will add to this.
Good luck.
--------
John_P
12-05-2006, 05:58 PM
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Just say no to methanol.....Water is great......John's setup and explanation is perfection (as usual)...The snow boost cooler is a nice system for general chemical intercooling. You can inject water in small amounts at lots of different places to get the desired performance.... It will drop your egts and allow more fueling to be added but it doesn't help the black smoke but it does keep your cylinders spotless and water is virtually free or more expensive than diesel. ks
12-05-2006, 06:35 PM
#7
Registered User
So on a mild truck is this worth it? Does it really extend the life of the engine? From what john_P is saying it looks like unless you have a very "hot" truck you shouldn't use it...???
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12-06-2006, 12:22 PM
#8
Administrator
Luken:
I am glad the post helped you buddy!
I often wonder when I post and try to "explain" something (like water or water meth. inj.) if I am being clear enough and if it makes any sense???
It is like the old saying; "You know what you WANT to say, but can't say it CLEARLY enough for everyone to understand" if that makes any sense??
I respect what you have been able to achieve with your truck very much and feel that the water or water methanol injection will help you out alot if you are seeing high EGT's on your truck which you probably are.
---------
abc4yew:
Thanks for the compliment! I appreciate it.
---------
subspd:
I guess I would add that if your truck does not see high EGT's normally, then no, you probably don't have to have water or water meth. injection. However, if you are looking for "easy" additional H.P. I think it is a good way to go.
Another area where I feel it will help is for the guys who have mild power upgrades and don't normally see high EGT's, BUT,....they tow real heavy.
Take a REAL hot day, add heavy humidity, add a load of say 10,000 lbs. plus along with say a 4-6% grade like out here in the Smoky Mountains and you have a "recipe" for potentially high EGT's! I know with my 2006 Dodge CTD CR, I only have a "T&S Performance MP-8" right now and normally don't see over 1200 degree EGT's even under WOT. But,.....recently I towed a heavy load in the conditions I describe above and could get my truck to hit 1500 degrees if I stayed in the throttle. So,.....in conditions like that it can help too.
Hope this has helped.
--------
John_P
I am glad the post helped you buddy!
I often wonder when I post and try to "explain" something (like water or water meth. inj.) if I am being clear enough and if it makes any sense??? It is like the old saying; "You know what you WANT to say, but can't say it CLEARLY enough for everyone to understand" if that makes any sense?? I respect what you have been able to achieve with your truck very much and feel that the water or water methanol injection will help you out alot if you are seeing high EGT's on your truck which you probably are.
---------
abc4yew:
Thanks for the compliment!
I appreciate it.---------
subspd:
I guess I would add that if your truck does not see high EGT's normally, then no, you probably don't have to have water or water meth. injection. However, if you are looking for "easy" additional H.P. I think it is a good way to go.
Another area where I feel it will help is for the guys who have mild power upgrades and don't normally see high EGT's, BUT,....they tow real heavy.
Take a REAL hot day, add heavy humidity, add a load of say 10,000 lbs. plus along with say a 4-6% grade like out here in the Smoky Mountains and you have a "recipe" for potentially high EGT's! I know with my 2006 Dodge CTD CR, I only have a "T&S Performance MP-8" right now and normally don't see over 1200 degree EGT's even under WOT. But,.....recently I towed a heavy load in the conditions I describe above and could get my truck to hit 1500 degrees if I stayed in the throttle. So,.....in conditions like that it can help too.
Hope this has helped.
--------
John_P
12-06-2006, 05:38 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
hmm, any ohter thoughts? I also live in colorado, so without the meth the water would freeze, it woulndt freeze with a small amount of meth in it would it? This would be 0 degree weather that we sometimes have.
12-06-2006, 06:57 PM
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that is my question too acook, we hit -40 at times here, and I have heard of people using the -40 windshield washer fluid in their snow kits. Is this a bad thing?
Kevin
Kevin
12-06-2006, 07:08 PM
#11
Banned
Thread Starter
Correct, id like to run water to keep egts in check and all but dont want to pay for cracked tanks all the time. And yes john p it was don m i saw posting about it being beneficial to the engine.
12-07-2006, 08:28 AM
#12
Administrator
acook and morkable:
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys.
You guys asked about the possibilities of freezing the water/methanol mix in the cold climate you are in. I spoke with Cris S. (masonic-dodge) last night and he uses pure or "real" methanol, not the windshield washer mix that is found in alot of the truck stops, gas stations etc. A mixture of 80% water and 20% "pure/real" methanol should get you down to -20 degrees.
Now, like you guys, I have seen some combinations of OTC windshield washer solvents that "claim" to be good to -30 to -40, but to be honest with you, I don't know if I would trust that or not! Before I used it in those temperatures, I think I would put it in a pan and leave it outside in those temperatures and see what happens. You can most likely use the "pure/real" methanol and mix it with water at higher percentages to get that freeze point
further down, BUT, the "general rule" I have always heard is to NEVER go above a 49% mixture of "pure" methanol and water in ANY diesel!
Hope this helps you guys some.
-------
John_P
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys.
You guys asked about the possibilities of freezing the water/methanol mix in the cold climate you are in. I spoke with Cris S. (masonic-dodge) last night and he uses pure or "real" methanol, not the windshield washer mix that is found in alot of the truck stops, gas stations etc. A mixture of 80% water and 20% "pure/real" methanol should get you down to -20 degrees.
Now, like you guys, I have seen some combinations of OTC windshield washer solvents that "claim" to be good to -30 to -40, but to be honest with you, I don't know if I would trust that or not! Before I used it in those temperatures, I think I would put it in a pan and leave it outside in those temperatures and see what happens. You can most likely use the "pure/real" methanol and mix it with water at higher percentages to get that freeze point
further down, BUT, the "general rule" I have always heard is to NEVER go above a 49% mixture of "pure" methanol and water in ANY diesel!
Hope this helps you guys some.
-------
John_P
12-07-2006, 08:38 AM
#13
Registered User
JP,
Good write-up!!
When the IP goes on my truck the water will be a must!! I did a big long burnout yesterday and by the time I was done the pyro was PEGGED
Good write-up!!
When the IP goes on my truck the water will be a must!! I did a big long burnout yesterday and by the time I was done the pyro was PEGGED
12-07-2006, 09:00 AM
#14
Administrator
Phil:
Yeah buddy, after our ride together last month, there is no doubt in my mind you will DEFINITELY need water!! And you will also need another fuel pump to get that FP up too! Twenty (20) pounds at WOT is NOT going to get it done!
-------
John_P
Yeah buddy, after our ride together last month, there is no doubt in my mind you will DEFINITELY need water!!
And you will also need another fuel pump to get that FP up too! Twenty (20) pounds at WOT is NOT going to get it done!-------
John_P
12-07-2006, 09:18 AM
#15
DTR Advertiser
Im pro water and even agree with some meth added for additional temp control. The idea here is to keep cylinder temps under control that in turn keeps your engine alive.
I dont like too much meth added because it can ignite way too early and cause a detonation ( "nailing" is the less used Diesel term ) problem. You may not always be able to hear it either.
There is undoubtedly some confusion on the EGT and the cylinder temps between the older Cummins and the newer CR engines.
In the past we could run 12 Valves off the gage many many times and not do as much harm as we do with the CR pistons, rings, valves, etc.
The cylinder temps are much higher on the CR VS the 12 and VP44 24 with the same EGT in many conditions. This is why we have so many CR engines dropping valve seats, scoring cylinder walls and melting stuff. Seems like every time I turn around someone has roached a CR engine. Not becasue they are not as durable. Actually the opposite is true. But because the thermal loads are so much higher.
I dont like too much meth added because it can ignite way too early and cause a detonation ( "nailing" is the less used Diesel term ) problem. You may not always be able to hear it either.
There is undoubtedly some confusion on the EGT and the cylinder temps between the older Cummins and the newer CR engines.
In the past we could run 12 Valves off the gage many many times and not do as much harm as we do with the CR pistons, rings, valves, etc.
The cylinder temps are much higher on the CR VS the 12 and VP44 24 with the same EGT in many conditions. This is why we have so many CR engines dropping valve seats, scoring cylinder walls and melting stuff. Seems like every time I turn around someone has roached a CR engine. Not becasue they are not as durable. Actually the opposite is true. But because the thermal loads are so much higher.