Originally Posted by HOV

Here's a post Bill Kondalay (DTT Transmissions) wrote about it, but this was back in 2002.
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This seems to be a question i answer a lot lately. What is a multi disc clutch and how do i understand about them.

Before i get into the automatic transmisison explination here is an analogy i want you to keep in mind as a reference for the info i am about to explain for the automatic.

If you owned a standard transmission and you constantly rested your foot on the clutch, would the clutch last a long time ? or do you think you would be shortening the the life by doing so.

MULTI DISC CLUTCHES
If when considering a product and you don’t know the proper questions to ask you could find yourself in a little bit of trouble.

Here is ia more detailed breakdown so you can verify for yourself without bias using your service manuals.

On an automatic the tc clutch is released by hydraulic oil, the moment you start your truck up hydraulic oil (atf) pushes the clutch piston away from the front cover towards the turbine. If you have multiple disc clutches you are actually hydraulically applying the lock up clutch as the lock up clutch fibres are being squeezed by the atf.

2 of the 3 clutch fibres are on all the time the moment you start your truck up till you shut it off. They are constantly being dragged; this will result in premature failure. By the time the average person even figures out what is going on, they will not only have contaminated their transmission but they would be looking at contamination of the heat exchanger and the transmission cooler. It could turn out to be a expensive repair

You wont get much warning till the truck just up and quits.

The lock up clutch system is a simple device, its either on or off.

Torque converter clutch release oil is fed through the input shaft via switch valve. This valve simply supplies release oil or apply oil to the tc clutch. This information you guys can verify in your Chrysler manuals.

The oil is fed through the input shaft to release the lockup clutch the moment you start your vehicle. This oil pressure is always there pushing against the clutch piston until the lockup up valve cycles and turns the switch valve. Then the oil is released from in front of the piston which then becomes cooler flow oil.

The oem system is designed to only release a single clutch .

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When you have a multiple disc clutch the release oil also becomes partial apply oil.
When you have 3 fibre discs you must have 3 steel surfaces for them to work against.
The other 2 dics must have their own apply plate so the center disc is actually being squeezed between the two pressure plates causing those two fibres to wear out. As these fibres are wearing out they are creating contamination.

Since the oil leaving the converter has now become cooler flow and goes through the switch valve and not the transmission filter the contamination first enters the heat exchanger then the transmission cooler then your return lube through the intermediate shaft . The contamination will now enter the transmission pan from intermediate shaft.

I know the repair bills for this type of damage is expensive because its nearly impossible to clean out the heat exchanger and the trans cooler.

Now if someone dis-agrees with how i described the lock up system works please feel free to comment on my discussion forum.

For those of you who want to follow along and don’t know who to believe or i lost you, get out your Chrysler manual , most of the information i am discussing is in there in a lot more detail. Look up the switch valve, the lockup valve and the cooler flow , and the tc clutch.

Having a Chrysler manual may be the best $95 you spend on your Dodge Ram.

After 1999 it is one of the best written books you will ever find on your Dodge automatic. Not only does it talk about how to change the parts it tells you what each individual part does and principles of operation.

If you guys have any questions please feel free to ask on my forum.

The major confusing issue that started the controversy between the latest triple disc company and us (DTT) is because it was stated that higher line pressures are not necessary to facilitate the tripple disc Torque converters.

When we as manufacturers make untrue claims like this we had better be able to back them up. This is the age of instant information; companies can no longer make outlandish claims without feedback from other competitors and or customers.

Transmissions seem to be more of a mystery to most consumers and gives the manufacturers a strong advantage over the consumers.

It is my intention to try and use this website as an equalizer to some of the CRAP being told to consumers out there about their transmisions.

Think really hard about this: TRIPLE DISCS ARE FAILING IN THE FORDS AT AN ALARMING RATE, you have only to look on the ford website to confirm this. COMPANIES suggesting this same system is the answer for the dodge is either not paying attention or must really believe the CUMMINS HAS LESS TORQUE THAT THE FORDs.

My best advice to you is to be careful that the advice you are following is not damaging to your transmission.

Do your home work carefully and if you dont understand something ask questions from various sources until you do.
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http://www.dieseltrans.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=12

Originally Posted by John_P

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HOV:

No offense to you on this but this "scare tactic" that Bill Kondolay used WAY back in 2002 about the triple disc converters "failing at an alarming rate" is just FALSE! Yes they have had failures of them but Mr. Kondolay would need to explain WHY he is now the ONLY company that is NOT building a triple disc converter for his customers?? All of the major aftermarket tranny companies now build and sell a triple disc converter including; Suncoast, Dunrite, HTS, and ATS now has their five disc converter. IMHO, his argument no longer is valid. The triple disc converters have 119 inches of lock-up clutch surface versus 34 on a single disc converter! These triple disc converters can all be found in some of the most powerful and fastest DHRA/NHRDA Drag Race Trucks like Stuckeys, Jimmy Smiths, Jeff Garmon, Dennis Perry to name a few.
Most of these trucks are putting down well over 1000 H.P. and close to 2000 ft.lbs. of torque, so that argument of "failures" is FALSE in my honest opinion.
I have been running a triple disc ATS converter in my trucks for over five years now with absolutely NO PROBLEMS whatsoever and my 96' is putting down over 800 H.P./1600 TQ. to the rear wheels! The argument about "more lag" is also FALSE! My triple disc converter performs very well on the bottom end even in a Dodge CTD 12 valve truck which IMHO is somewhat "lazier" off the line than the newer 24 valve or CR trucks due to the variable timing on the newer trucks versus the "fixed" timing on my 96' DOdge CTD 12 valve.
As long as the converter is "matched" properly to the trucks power/torque, and the "stall speed" is correct IMHO the triple-disc converter is a great product.

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John_P

Originally Posted by RonP

Great post John. See you soon. I just want to add that the comment I made about lag had to do with the "tight" converter if you will. Whether it is a single or a triple. That is just how it is. It must be matched as close as possible. We go through this same thing with drag cars and how tight the converter is or isn't depending on use and power made and your 96 makes some POWER.

I will find out soon how mine is.

Originally Posted by revolution_dsl

I agree with John, and as far as triple vs single goes heres my take. I sell singles to hot shotters, stock rebuilds, and anyone who REFUSES to buy a billet input. Triples go into lockup HARD, and without a billet input youre only asking for failure, at which point when youre buying your next converter or having yours repaired you will be thinking "shouldda went with a single or billet shaft". Personally, I run a suncoast triple, with a full billet HTS trans, and had previous to that an ATS 5-star. The whole failure due to three discs is the biggest joke ive ever heard. if failure was such a problem, why would xxxxx company warranty their converter for 100k if they KNEW it would have to be replaced? xxxxx company wouldnt be in business anymore.

When youre selecting a converter, it isnt just slap one up and go. Turbo(s) sizing, usuage of the truck, and horsepower/torque all need to be taken into consideration. If ANYONE who may be doing a transmission for you tells you otherwise, you ought to start looking for a new trans person.

If youre looking into a big single, by big i mean anything larger than a 66, you will need to think about a loose converter and depending on how youre driving the truck possibly and input shaft each year. the looser the converter is, the harder it is on shafts due to the tremendous jump in RPM when it goes into lockup. You will also need to use your switch or lockup box of choice quite often as trans temps will be high due to the inefficiany of the converter, if you will.
If you have any questions feel free to PM me or give me a call at 765 409 0496.


Also,
John, will you be at the TS show? We met at the TST dyno event this year, blue standard cab 12v that made 650/1438 on #2. It is under a ...slight...recontruction right now to run 9's.

Originally Posted by revolution_dsl

Chris, failure from DTT, Suncoast, all of the above?

Originally Posted by RowJ

A lot has changed since 2002. Bills comments back then were more relevant than they are today. I'm sure many experts were saying (in 2002) that a diesel truck couldn't get over 1000 hp...or under 10 sec in a 1/4 mile.
There appears to be an honest choice out there today between two systems that both work well.
But the fact remains that single disk clutches are holding well for 100,000+ miles...and at higher HP levels than most of us will ever attain.

Buying a triple because 'more is better' is, IMO, the wrong reason. I suspect Dave Goerand says buy a triple at 500 hp because he does not build as strong a single disk TC as does DTT. So if going with Dave's tranny, follow Daves advice.

DTT has built it's high pressure system around a custom designed single disk TC that has a lifetime warranty.
More importantly, it works very well over 900 hp.

So, IMO, it's not a question of good vs better vs best. It's a question of matched components, in a system matched to the owners driving needs .... something we are lucky enough to have from more than one aftermarket supplier.
One thing Bill K. says above IS true.... Auto Trannys are a mystery to most. I say pick a builder you like and feel you can trust and follow their recommendations.

RJ