rmb93243
I think your posts have sold me on the Predator Stage II. I don't want to burn my tires or smoke up the neighborhood but would like to go over mountains with a little more power. It sounds really easy to install, except for one of your earlier posts when you said you put it in backwards.
I have towed over some good size mountains with no problem. The predator sounds like there will be less of a problem when installed. The only question is whether to get the stage I or stage II. Is 80hp too much for towing? Would 50hp be better? A little more reading before I go with the install. I have the X-Monitor on the way so that will keep me busy for a little while.

 

I don't think you will be able to use more than 30-50HP gain from a pressure box in a towing situation without more air. Even 50 HP is pushing it. If you are committed to a pressure box, consider an in-cab adjustable one, for example a 0-50-100 such as bullydog or quadzilla, both of which are very easy installs.

The only pressure box currently shipping that runs cool enough to challenge the 30-50 HP limit for towing (my opinion) is the Banks. it runs noticably cooler because of the timing advance. But the install is pretty hairy compared to the simple pressure boxes like predator, Quadzilla and bullydog.

if you're REALLY only interested in only a small HP bump for towing, and you're truly honest about that, you really should consider the Van Aaken pressure box. this one as an excellent torque rise for towing (torque where you need it), and a small (30HP) gain in peak horsepower at the high end for very managable EGTs.

 

doug, I have replaced the exhaust with a 4" turbo back and put on a K&N ait filter system. If you think I could only go with a 30HP gain pressure box, I think I'll pass. Dosen't seem like very much added power for the expense.
Thanks for your input. I'll check out the Van Aaken pressure box.

 

I'm just making a suggestion in an area where I don't have direct data. I've towed around 5-6K pounds with the Volumizer on 50HP. all worked well as long as I stayed below 2000 rpm. above that, the EGTs creep up on you like winter underwear.

Also, don't make a towing decision based on peak horsepower claims. unless you plan to tow at the rpm where those peak horsepower numbers are made. peak may have very little to do with the torque you need at the rpms where you spend the most time towing. So don't get sucked in by the numbers.

thats why I mentioned torque rise. the VA pressure box will pull strong down low where most people tow. thats why its important that you are honest about your goals -- If they are TRULY towing only AND you want to limit EGTs then all I'm saying is that you need to stay in the 30-50 HP range when you shop for a box. Ultimately, however, you'll want to describe what your goals really are for towing. If its a bump in pulling power and cruise stability, that can be met with a good torque rise box and very little peak HP increase. Thats the whole idea behind torque rise -- to optimize towing for engines with low peak HP output. The big rigs capitalize on that very nice feature of the diesel.

Anyway, I think you can fulfil your goals with a 30-50HP box, and there are a few to choose from. If however you are shopping for the maximum peak horspower claim that you can drive with, then thats a different story.

 

doug,
No, I am sincere in my towing desires. I am within days of retirement and I bought the truck and 5th wheel to travel. I have not had one moment of disappointment with the towing capabilities of this Dodge. We have the same engine and you should know, except it appears you have a 6spd and I an Auto. I was looking at the VA when you posted and I guess I have not finished my homework. The VA is very impressive with the inside the cab ability to turn it off or raise it up. I think I was reading too many posts by rmb93243, who has a different engine than mine. I appreciate your posts and take them as they are, your opinion coupled with some knowledge. I really don't need any more power to tow, but it wouldn't hurt me none either if I had it.

 

well my congratulations and envy as you approach retirement! 5ver travel is precisely my goal as well, only about 15 years behind you


Here's one reason why I suggest you look at the VA pressure box: it makes 70HP "best gain" -- thats the horsepower gain in the rpms of greatest interest for towing and cuising stability. But at the high rpms (where EGTs are an issue on the stock truck when towing) it makes only 30 HP gain over stock (actually I think it is 25).

check out this bunch of verbiage for more info. At the bottom you will find a link to a comparative matrix. Check out the VA L1 dyno report and notice the torque rise, the horsepower gain at the low end for towing, and the relatively weak (but low EGT) fueling at the top (high RPM). This box was definately optimized for towing with the stock turbocharger.

In terms of power and drivability I also think the Quadzilla towing module is very nice, esp on the 50HP setting. Same for bullydog. I'm just a fan of in-cab adjustabillity. not to knock the predator certainly -- I found the predator 3 to be one of the most drivable (not jumpy) versions of the aggressive boxes. So unfortunately I haven't seen or driven the predator 1 or 2. they might be very VA like I don't know. the only fault I give them is that you can't turn them off or down. I just prefer being able to instantly return to stock power at any moment.

 

not trying to sway anyones decision on wich box to buy, but the predator i have in my truck wich is a stage two does have a wire to hook to a toggle switch to where you can turn the box off. my truck is a 04.5 600. i would agree with doug on useable power on this box for towing. you do have to watch those egt's.
d12

 

I spoke with a friend that has the same engine as mine except it's an '04 and he was saying that what is desireable is the torque at low RPM's and not necessarily the HP, as stated in the report also. HP is good but the torque is what gets you over the mountains. I'll keep reading. Thanks for all the information about the boxes.

 

well, just to be precise in our language here. horsepower is the rate of doing work and quite literally it is horspower that gets you over the mountains. But don't be mislead -- this does not mean that peak horsepower ratings are to be trusted as a parameter to describe towing performance.

It turns out that the parameter best describing the ability to pull you over the moutains is horsepower at the rpm of interest .

So the mathematically astute will notice that when we say "horsepower at the rpm of interest" we are now describing torque! But here again, don't be mislead: this does not mean that peak torque ratings are to be trusted either.

I use the term, "horsepower at the rpm of interest" because it causes you to think about the problem in the correct way: rate of doing work under real driving conditions. how fast you can pull your trailer over the mountain. its all rate of doing work, which is horsepower. This way, we get to ignore curve shape discussions and concentrate on the real problem: how much horsepower is available under the conditions you need it.

 

Call me kooky here, but I would think that looking at "horsepower at the rpm on interest" would garner more interest in the horsepower/torque curve. That way, one would be able to more easily visualize where the power is going to be at a given RPM. The big problem there would be trying to remain realistic about what your intentions are not getting wided-eyed from high horsepower at an RPM that you're not going to be running in.

 

exactly right. "horsepower at the rpm of interest" causes you to think of the problem correctly, and that leads to the curves and away from single numbers. by "ignoring the shape discussions" I mean discussions of torque rise, flat torque curves, flat horsepower curves, etc. we need to concentrate on the horspower over the rpm range of interest, and get away from saying "shape x is better than shape y".

 

OK, I thought long and hard about the VA too, and a main reason I went with the Predator was its connection points and a few more claimed ponies. I probably would have been happy with the VA as well. What's neat about the VA 3.1 is you have 3 settings, off - mid- full.

The SO truck may react differently than an HO to a pressure box, but I can run up hill at 2200-2400 rpm all day long and not exceed safe EGT's. When climbing 6%+ grades I pop it out of OD (tow/haul) and control the temp with the throttle.

As to horsepower vs. torque it seems more to me that torque is what "moves you out" while horsepower "holds you up". I can't hold a hill at 65 mph without good mid-range (not peak) horsepower, but I can't get up there without good bottom end torque. If I can get my best hp gain around 2300, where the truck runs the coolest I'm a happy camper.

The predator seems to do a real nice job in the mid-range, where my towing chores need it. I have the right exhaust, but I haven't made the leep to an intake yet, mainly due to that oiling issue (scares me a bit). Although considering how much RPM I have left and the fuel the predator delivers I think a beefier turbo is needed to hold WOT while towing. But man the way this thing rockets getting on the freeway is a blast!!!

 

fundamentals, man. fundamentals. horsepower is the rate of doing work. period. horspower gets you there, holds you there, whatever. its all horsepower. slice and dice all you want, its horsepower that gets you up the hill.

don't forget the formula: horsepower = (torque x rpm)/5252. The advantage to high torque is that it makes more horsepower. But it isn't the torque that does it -- its the product of torque x rpm that gets you up the hill, and that is horsepower.

I will say this about the low-smoke boxes and the fueling curves designed into them. the fueling curves are all good in my opinion. Quadzilla, Predator, Banks, Edge. all very drivable, very little smoke. bullydog too, although a little more smoke. anyway, just dont' believe all the marketing hype you see or you'll think these boxes will bring world peace.

 

Doug, I understand the math, but I just like putting it in simple terms. It seems the best working range of this motor for towing is around 1800-2300 rpm and that's where I want lots of torque to maintain speed on a hill. That was true even before I put in the box. For towing, motors that produce their torque in low rpm's are much more desirable than ones that produce their torque in high rpm's, right?

LRod, one thing you could consider about the predator, they offered me a 30 money back gaurantee. So if you don't like it...

No wait, you mean if we all came together in forums and discussed our experiences and differences of opinion in a peaceful manner, that isn't world peace? I say fueling boxes in every Dodge!!!

 

Both boxes sound like they would do the job I'm looking for. To get more HP power at lower rpm's. I remember towing up steep hills and cracking out 3 grand. I would rather do it at 2000 to 2500.
There's not that many places I seen the VA sold. The two places I've seen range from $457.93 at dieselservices for a van Aaken CPC controller and $399. at jannettyracing for 03 DODGE RAM VAN AAKEN BOX 65 hp 200 lb ft..
What's the difference between the van Aaken CPC and the van Aaken SmartBox C3.1?
Do you know of another place that would sell these?
Thanks.