Predator Stage 2
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From: Post Falls, Idaho
Originally posted by rmb93243
I hope these codes will clear with some time unpowered or a few restarts.
I hope these codes will clear with some time unpowered or a few restarts.
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Joined: Jul 2003
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From: I'll look into that!
A good question would be, what is the rail pressure on the 04.5 600's ?
Originally posted by rmb93243
Rementa, there was a huge difference in how much the local retailers wanted compared to Jegs like $150! I don't work for them or anything, I just tried a few before going that route.
I was really thinking hard about the VA 3.1 or the EZ, but both of those boxes increase the rail pressure and EGT's, although much more mild than some, I still did not like the idea of goofing up my trip computer and putting the added strain on the rail.
Predator claims they don't do either. I am really happy with the results so far.
As far as the dealer being able to tell if the EZ has ever been installed? There's a ton of discussion about that out there, but my hunch is that the ECU will tell what the peak rail pressure was and since EZ is about 27,000 (max I think) and stock is about 24,000, they could see that if they looked. I Don't know, but don't want to run that risk. EZ is a good box too, there's a lot of guys here that are real happy with it.
Rementa, there was a huge difference in how much the local retailers wanted compared to Jegs like $150! I don't work for them or anything, I just tried a few before going that route.
I was really thinking hard about the VA 3.1 or the EZ, but both of those boxes increase the rail pressure and EGT's, although much more mild than some, I still did not like the idea of goofing up my trip computer and putting the added strain on the rail.
Predator claims they don't do either. I am really happy with the results so far.
As far as the dealer being able to tell if the EZ has ever been installed? There's a ton of discussion about that out there, but my hunch is that the ECU will tell what the peak rail pressure was and since EZ is about 27,000 (max I think) and stock is about 24,000, they could see that if they looked. I Don't know, but don't want to run that risk. EZ is a good box too, there's a lot of guys here that are real happy with it.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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From: seattle
Try to get a definate answer on how they increase hp, and they won't tell you. I talked to them several times and they couldn't give me a straight answer, can you say rail pressure above the stock 23000 psi, how else? As for the towing, not with the 600. Pre turbo and a 4 k trailer will surpass 1200 easily without geting into 3 rd gear. My guages won't allow an 8k trailer,, BTW are the guages post.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 429
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From: Point Pleasant, NJ USA
I've been keeping a good log on fuel consumption. I have the Pred 2 and 600 engine. Since I hooked up the box, the computer shows my mileage to be about 3 or 4 mpg over actual. Without the box the computer is usually right on (+-.25).
Other then that, the box works fine with no codes. I've gotten so used to the box that when I disconnect it (in attempt to get better MPG on long trips w/no trailer) I can't take the lack of power! Mileage does drop though so don't expect to get better mileage with the box as I once thought. But then again, it could be the right-foot syndrome!
Other then that, the box works fine with no codes. I've gotten so used to the box that when I disconnect it (in attempt to get better MPG on long trips w/no trailer) I can't take the lack of power! Mileage does drop though so don't expect to get better mileage with the box as I once thought. But then again, it could be the right-foot syndrome!
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From: Houston
Well I decided to return my stage 1 because I am not ready for it yet. I want to install my gauges and an AFE air intake with torque tube before I get involved with modules.
I also noticed that on the one I got that there is an option to install a switch to turn the thing off and also an optional wire for an EGT monitor that controls the module when high EGT's are reached. Anyone know where this monitor can be purchase?
I also noticed that on the one I got that there is an option to install a switch to turn the thing off and also an optional wire for an EGT monitor that controls the module when high EGT's are reached. Anyone know where this monitor can be purchase?
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Joined: Sep 2004
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From: Ely, NV
rmb, I was looking at the Edge Juice w/Attitude Monitor but the Predator sounds pretty good. 
I went looking for one and found it at White's Pit stop,
http://store.wpsracing.com/prsepemo.html
$375. That's about the best price I could find. Instead of the Attitude I'd go with the X-Monitor. If you have any other updates on how that hot rod is running, post them. Thanks!
I went looking for one and found it at White's Pit stop,http://store.wpsracing.com/prsepemo.html
$375. That's about the best price I could find. Instead of the Attitude I'd go with the X-Monitor. If you have any other updates on how that hot rod is running, post them. Thanks!
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From: Northern Virginia
The Attitude only works with the Juice.
I'm looking to upgrade from my EZ box in the future too. Not sure yet which box I'm gonna get. Those dyno numbers are great! Whats the stock hp/tq on your 04 SO?
I'm looking to upgrade from my EZ box in the future too. Not sure yet which box I'm gonna get. Those dyno numbers are great! Whats the stock hp/tq on your 04 SO?
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Boise ID
I refer to box technology by what they connect to and the parameters they directly influence. that avoids technobabble about pressure boxes affecting timing, duration, and other things that they don't have direct control over.
That said, The predators are pressure boxes. they connect to boost and rail pressure sensors just like Ramifier, EZ, Bullydog, Van Aaken, Volumizer, Quadzilla, etc.
I have tested the stage 3. There are some things to note:
0. There is no fancy boost fooling going on like Volumizer or Ramfier. pretty straight setup with boost limited to around 20 something psi (my OBD boost gauge is in atmostpheres and my head doesn't calculate directly in psi...).
1. in order to get high peak HP you have to raise rail pressure above stock maximum. period end of story. you show me more peak horsepower than stock and I show you higher rail pressure than stock. the stage 3 goes to 27,000 psi. woa baby
2. One of the notable predator 3 behaviors is that during normal cruising, the NOMINAL rail pressure is significantly higher than stock. at 65 mph and 10 lbs of boost, the stock truck runs at about 12,000 psi rail pressure. With the predator 3, under the same driving conditions rail pressure runs constant at about 21,000 psi. wow.
3. fuel mileage: I traveled from SW Idaho to NW Washington, about 500 miles each way. Predator on the way (going from 2,700 ft elevation to 400 ft elevation was 16.5 mpg running empty 65-75 mph, calcuated by hand. The overhead computer registered 21.5 mpg. on the way back (going from 400 ft. elevation to 2,700 ft) I ran bone stock and made 18 mpg while the overhead registered 17 mpg. All cruise controlled highway speeds and lots of mountain passes.
Running rail pressure above running stock nominal value (not above stock maximum) means that the same amount of power is being delivered with a shorter duration pulse. that appears to be the predator philosophy -- to make stock power levels with more pressure and less duration than the stock ECM would normally dial up.
there are a number of side-effects to using a pressure box, and none are unique to predator. all pressure boxes muck with plume distribution (pressure affects this) , and all affect timing and duration indirectly to some degree as a consequence of pressure fooling. I've only studied one other pressure box for nominal rail pressure (65 mph 10 lbs boost) and I can say with certanty that some run with higher nominal pressure than others. For example, the Banks six gun runs nominally at closer to stock levels when the truck is making near stock power levels.
It could be that predator 3 runs a high steady-state nominal rail pressure and as such they could claim some effect on plume distribution and duration. Just because for the same power output you have a shorter duration, higher pressure injector pulse. I'm not saying that is good or bad; just pointing out the result. And I have nothing to compare with (so far) except the Banks six gun which appears to be much more stock-like.
That said, The predators are pressure boxes. they connect to boost and rail pressure sensors just like Ramifier, EZ, Bullydog, Van Aaken, Volumizer, Quadzilla, etc.
I have tested the stage 3. There are some things to note:
0. There is no fancy boost fooling going on like Volumizer or Ramfier. pretty straight setup with boost limited to around 20 something psi (my OBD boost gauge is in atmostpheres and my head doesn't calculate directly in psi...).
1. in order to get high peak HP you have to raise rail pressure above stock maximum. period end of story. you show me more peak horsepower than stock and I show you higher rail pressure than stock. the stage 3 goes to 27,000 psi. woa baby
2. One of the notable predator 3 behaviors is that during normal cruising, the NOMINAL rail pressure is significantly higher than stock. at 65 mph and 10 lbs of boost, the stock truck runs at about 12,000 psi rail pressure. With the predator 3, under the same driving conditions rail pressure runs constant at about 21,000 psi. wow.
3. fuel mileage: I traveled from SW Idaho to NW Washington, about 500 miles each way. Predator on the way (going from 2,700 ft elevation to 400 ft elevation was 16.5 mpg running empty 65-75 mph, calcuated by hand. The overhead computer registered 21.5 mpg. on the way back (going from 400 ft. elevation to 2,700 ft) I ran bone stock and made 18 mpg while the overhead registered 17 mpg. All cruise controlled highway speeds and lots of mountain passes.
Running rail pressure above running stock nominal value (not above stock maximum) means that the same amount of power is being delivered with a shorter duration pulse. that appears to be the predator philosophy -- to make stock power levels with more pressure and less duration than the stock ECM would normally dial up.
there are a number of side-effects to using a pressure box, and none are unique to predator. all pressure boxes muck with plume distribution (pressure affects this) , and all affect timing and duration indirectly to some degree as a consequence of pressure fooling. I've only studied one other pressure box for nominal rail pressure (65 mph 10 lbs boost) and I can say with certanty that some run with higher nominal pressure than others. For example, the Banks six gun runs nominally at closer to stock levels when the truck is making near stock power levels.
It could be that predator 3 runs a high steady-state nominal rail pressure and as such they could claim some effect on plume distribution and duration. Just because for the same power output you have a shorter duration, higher pressure injector pulse. I'm not saying that is good or bad; just pointing out the result. And I have nothing to compare with (so far) except the Banks six gun which appears to be much more stock-like.
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From: Spokane, Wa
Doug,
I asked this question awhile ago but it was before you were doing the box summary. Does the EZ only raise rail pressure according to boost? Common sense seem to say that they elevate pressure all the time also as user seem to get better fuel mileage. Am I correct in my assumption?
-Richard
I asked this question awhile ago but it was before you were doing the box summary. Does the EZ only raise rail pressure according to boost? Common sense seem to say that they elevate pressure all the time also as user seem to get better fuel mileage. Am I correct in my assumption?
-Richard
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From: So. Cal.
I've put about 7,000 miles on the box. 5,000 of those were towing my 9,000 lbs. trailer on vacation. Bang for the buck, I'm still happy with the box. I have been getting about 1-2 mpg better than stock, but I don't drive it hard too often. Yes, it DID improve my stock mpg numbers, maybe because I'm not burying this SO's throttle all the time.
Most of the time the trip computer and hand calc are very close. All but 2 fill-ups on my vacation were within a couple tenths. But when I drove it hard, like running into a strong headwind, the computer was about 2 mpg higher, using lots more fuel than the ECU thinks.
EGT's are a concern, I can't keep the throttle buried, but towing up hill I can pull a 6% at about 60 mph, and maintain EGT's at 1200°F . Much better than the 40-45 (WOT) in stock trim.
I don't have access to a dyno, I can only tell you this box really brought a lathargic truck to life. I at least got much closer to the stock 305's or 600's.
Maybe Santa will bring me the intake and turbo...
Most of the time the trip computer and hand calc are very close. All but 2 fill-ups on my vacation were within a couple tenths. But when I drove it hard, like running into a strong headwind, the computer was about 2 mpg higher, using lots more fuel than the ECU thinks.
EGT's are a concern, I can't keep the throttle buried, but towing up hill I can pull a 6% at about 60 mph, and maintain EGT's at 1200°F . Much better than the 40-45 (WOT) in stock trim.
I don't have access to a dyno, I can only tell you this box really brought a lathargic truck to life. I at least got much closer to the stock 305's or 600's.
Maybe Santa will bring me the intake and turbo...
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Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Boise ID
We have to acknowledge that fuel economy improvements are impossible to meaningfully correlate across all driving conditions and so as such we cannot say "box a increases mpg by x". It could happen, and I'm not doubting anyone's personal results -- I'm just saying that broadly correlating those results to other driving conditions cannot be done -- which is why some see improvement, some see no change, and others see poorer mpg.
Although I have not verified this, it does make some sense that elevated fuel pressure itself might yield a fuel economy improvement. thats IF the fuel atomization and burn quality is improved by such a technique. Since we don't know what combustion optimization has been done on the stock truck, we don't know exactly where the opportunities are. well, someone does...
as regards the rail pressure of the EZ and other pressure boxes, note that rail pressure is not constant. There is a stock pressure curve that dials up about 5,000 psi at idle up to 23,000 on demand. When the ECM fuels, it does so with a combination of pressure and duration.
The way pressure boxes work is to lie to the ECM about actual, measured rail pressure. The ECM sees low pressure (the lie from the box) and then fires off a higher pressure command to the CP3 until it (the ECM) is satisfied. ergo, the ECM always runs with a difference between what it thinks is measured rail pressure and the actual fuel pressure commands it is sending to the CP3.
So the question is "on what basis does the box determine how big of a lie to tell the ECM? The answer is that the boxes perform a "two-dimmentional mapping" to determine the rail pressure lie. They look at current (actual) rail pressure (intercepted so the ECM never sees this) and they look at Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP). So we say that the fuel pressure reported to the ECM is a function of actual fuel pressure and MAP. Oh, BTW, MAP is the same as boost + atmospheric pressure. you measure 20 lbs of boost, MAP will be 34.7 lbs.
Although I have not verified this, it does make some sense that elevated fuel pressure itself might yield a fuel economy improvement. thats IF the fuel atomization and burn quality is improved by such a technique. Since we don't know what combustion optimization has been done on the stock truck, we don't know exactly where the opportunities are. well, someone does...
as regards the rail pressure of the EZ and other pressure boxes, note that rail pressure is not constant. There is a stock pressure curve that dials up about 5,000 psi at idle up to 23,000 on demand. When the ECM fuels, it does so with a combination of pressure and duration.
The way pressure boxes work is to lie to the ECM about actual, measured rail pressure. The ECM sees low pressure (the lie from the box) and then fires off a higher pressure command to the CP3 until it (the ECM) is satisfied. ergo, the ECM always runs with a difference between what it thinks is measured rail pressure and the actual fuel pressure commands it is sending to the CP3.
So the question is "on what basis does the box determine how big of a lie to tell the ECM? The answer is that the boxes perform a "two-dimmentional mapping" to determine the rail pressure lie. They look at current (actual) rail pressure (intercepted so the ECM never sees this) and they look at Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP). So we say that the fuel pressure reported to the ECM is a function of actual fuel pressure and MAP. Oh, BTW, MAP is the same as boost + atmospheric pressure. you measure 20 lbs of boost, MAP will be 34.7 lbs.
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From: Boise ID
picture of a two rail pressure curves
Here is a picture of the stock rail pressure curve compared to the predator 3. The Y axis is rail pressure psi x 1000. the X axis is boost pressure in psi. do not construe this graph to indicate maximum rail pressure. stock maximum is 23,000. predator maximum is 27,000