No fun it all.... Sniff...Snifff...


well.....maybe just the new VA box...Tee hee hee heeeeee

--Doug (different Doug!) M.

 

blownaway,

Well yes in my opinion, they filter as well as a paper element, so it shouldn't be necessary unless you work in a rock quarry or some kind of really dirt enviroment etc.

Mark @ DPPI

 

I think we've got some confusion as to what PG-7 product we're talking about. The flow numbers I posted are specific to the 03-04 trucks, and AFE's complete intake system for that truck. 447 CFM at 1.5" of water is all you're gonna get out of a PG-7 with torque tube for this truck. and 6 inches of water column? thats three times the restriction force. hard to compare the donaldson numbers with the AFE, and hard to believe the donaldson would flow even close to 450CFM at 1.5" of water if it takes three times that much applied air pressure to flow 485 CFM.

AFE makes a lot higher flow intakes for the 2nd gens -- in the 1400 CFM region for non PG-7 materials. must be more room under the hood.

But again, 450 CFM of cold air translates to huge amounts of flow in the exhaust system (at first approximation, probably somewhere in the 2000 CFM region) , and in my opinion will easily support 1600 CFM in the e pipe -- this is about the max exhaust flow the engine is capable of sustaining without blowing up.

 

I wonder what an AFE PG7 would flow with 6" or 10" of water?

What would a Donaldson flow at 1.5" water?

Merrick

 

Rockrover: I wouldnt throw in the towel on Bombs yet. A free flow exhaust and intake are absolutley a must if you ever go to a box. The conclusion I've come to on this is that DC engineers did their job well for the given fueling and flow requirements of the motor - and nothing beyond that. From the thread on the TDR, it seems that we are basically boost fooling the factory ECM with thte higher flow rates - just in the wrong direction. And that will continue until we can add more fuel to the mix via a box. I'm setting my rig up slowly (and waaaay to slow at that!) so that its ready for whichever box I decide to put in it.

 

I'm going to try and stop by Airflow in the morning. These are the exact filters that I've been looking at also. Just need to figure out how the mount the sensor to the intake tube. Might have to order one from AFE if they'll sell it by itself.

 

Yea JT I hear ya...I was doin' the mope dance yesterday...I know none of the mods I'm doing (slowly too!) will be wasted when I get the box on her. It's just that when you want to believe a manuf. claim, and then find it proven wrong for your specific application, well...Let's just say it ain't cool. Now if I ever found a aftermarket manuf. that was actually HONEST (there are a few on this board) then I would hook on to them and give them my hard earned do-ray-me...There is just so many trying to make a fast buck at the expense of above board honesty, I start to become a bitter skeptic (well, that and the fact that I'm pushin' 40 ) that it's hard to believe anyone anymore.

Sigh...

The bombs will comith!

-D

 

AK, gypsyman, et. al. keep up the good work re: alternative filtering. we did this with the muffler and we could very well do this with the filter (leverage the semi-tractor industry).

I just want to caution you to properly interpret flow rates and don't get caught mis-applying the numbers. remember that flow rates are approximately linear in terms of "CFM per inch of water", as a first order approximation and reality check.

Consider the donaldson G110119 you mentioned: 625 CFM at 4.25 inches of water sounds good but watch out: you're not even in the right ballbark. That filter will only flow about 220 CFM at 1.5" of water. Thats about the same as the stock air box and about half what the AFE PG-7 with torque tube will do!

If you're trying to beat the AFE PG-7 with torque tube, note that this system flows at approximately 300 CFM per inch of water. so when you look at alternative filters, divide rated CFM by rated inches of water and you'll see that you need to set your sights a little higher.

Merrick: extrapolating "to the right" (to find higher flow rates) is as dangerous as going the other way is safe. that is, filter media isn't exactly linear, and so doubling "inches of water" won't translate quite into doubling CFM. I'm saying we can use "CFM per inch of water" as a way of finding the lower CFM rating of a certain media at a lower-than-rated restriction, but due to the non-linearity of the media this isn't reliable to predict the flow rate at a higher restriction.

But in answer to your question, the AFE-PG7, at 300 CFM per inch of water, would theoretically flow at 1800 CFM at 6 inches of water. in reality, such a large extrapolation is not wise (dont count on 1800), the media might not reliably survive it, and if it did, we know that linear extrapolation won't yield an acceptable performance answer.

 

Doug,

I dig it when you finally kick in on these threads. The flow rates being at different levels is what I was going to Airflow to check on. The small BHAF used for the Powerstroke kit flows 470 CFM but doesn't list at how many inches of water and the large BHAF for the older Dodges doesn't give any figures at all. I'll try to get some hard figures in the morning.

I WILL find a way to do this...

 

cool. sorry my participation is kind of hit and miss. But I'd really be tickled to see you guys come up with a solution that provides the right filtration and has flow in the region of 400+ CFM per inch of water, dry paper media, and a price that beats the gold plated aftermarket. Some of those sealed, enclosed filters look interesting. hoperfully there's room for such an animal under the hood

 

Doug,

Keep working on the fuel box dilemma and I'll be happy. Dying to try one. Towed for the first time cross country yesterday and was REALLLLLLY dissapointed. In the mean time I'll keep hammering on the dry media air flow problem. One way or another we will make big HP and TQ without losing driveability and throwing codes!

BTW get involved in the "larger exhaust causes defueling" threads. Alot of people are misunderstanding what is causing this. Now that Ted has brought it to light, I may have to plug the holes in my air box and go back to the factory 3.5" down pipe for my next mod just to gain back some HP.

I'm outta here. Gotta work before the rooster does...

 

I talked to Donaldson this morning and they told me that 6" H20 is the industry standard for testing air filter flow rates, being the number seen in most real world scenarios. He said if you look at air filter test results from all the major manufacturers, all of their tests are done using the same industry standard. I mentioned the AFE and what we are trying to do and he said basically, "Yeah the AFE will flow more than a comparably sized paper filter, but their tests are unrealistic. No one tests at 1.5" H20 as you could never get that much restriction in a real world scenario." He suggested it is a marketing angle to make their filters look "that much better" than paper. He suggested we figure out how much restriction is generated by uncontrollable elements during normal driving and look from there for a filter that meets our needs, although, he couldn't tell me how to go about doing that. He said that a diesel engine needs roughly 6" H20 restriction to cool effectively, whatever that means, hence the established industry standard. That is about all I could get out of Donaldson. I called Fleetguard as well, but couldn't get any further than a customer service rep that didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

Anyone make sense of this?

I did find a paper filter that flows about 550 at 1" H20....but it would require mounting a 30" steel can under the hood.

 

OK, I pulled the metric flow rates directly from the factory filter and converted them to US. The factory filter is only rated at 19.12 M3/Minute or 675.21 cfm at, get this, .035 Bar or 14.05 inches of water! Those figures don't look that hard to beat even with a small BHAF. I believe that all of the filters that AK RAM and I are looking at will beat those #'s.

 

Well, this sounds like everything is beginning to make sense. So, if that is the case, then even the standard Donaldson B105006 that has been so popular with the 2nd Gen guys for years flows at 1053.75 CFM at the same 14.05" H20....just as a comparison. I have run across several BHAFs in the last couple of days of searching that flow a good bit more than the B105006. Fleetguard makes a couple of filters the same size and basically the same flow characteristics as the B105006 as well.

 

AK,

I stopped by Airflow today and picked up the Duralite B085011, elbow, clamp, and mounting bracket. All I have to do now is build the MAP sensor mount & weld it to the elbow. Then I'll start on a heat shield. Everything looks good so far and according to the Donaldson website this filters original application is the 6BTA 5.9 Cummins. Wish me luck!!!