Dealers/manufacturers - Screwing over the truck owners some more
11-20-2008, 06:34 PM
#1
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Dealers/manufacturers - Screwing over the truck owners some more
I was working at a Chevrolet store today, granted the information here is geared to the Duramax trucks, I believe that Dodge/Cummins will be following suit.
During a service technician meeting the manager was talking about power adders, both on cars and specifically on the diesel trucks. Some Duramax owners have been keeping a spare ECM to hide the power adder from the dealership, and bragging about it on their forums. GM has been monitoring their forums and has been researching ways to defeat them. The dealership is reading data from the TCM, and making the call based on the amount of torque sensed by the transmission. Apparently the maximum torque possible with a stock configuration is 728 ft/lb at the flywheel. If the torque input exceeds 750 ft/lb the dealership has been instructed to blacklist the truck, voiding the powertrain warranty. The technicians asked some good questions, but thet bottom line is that GM is telling their service people that they are willing to fight the claims instead of warrantying them out when a power adder has been used. GM is also instructing the dealerships to cut 20% of goodwill immediately.
I'm guessing that Chrysler will take the same stance in these tough economic times, trying to carve out as much warranty stuff as possible in favor of customer pay (bend over...). I haven't done any powertrain mods to my truck yet, and it may stay that way
During a service technician meeting the manager was talking about power adders, both on cars and specifically on the diesel trucks. Some Duramax owners have been keeping a spare ECM to hide the power adder from the dealership, and bragging about it on their forums. GM has been monitoring their forums and has been researching ways to defeat them. The dealership is reading data from the TCM, and making the call based on the amount of torque sensed by the transmission. Apparently the maximum torque possible with a stock configuration is 728 ft/lb at the flywheel. If the torque input exceeds 750 ft/lb the dealership has been instructed to blacklist the truck, voiding the powertrain warranty. The technicians asked some good questions, but thet bottom line is that GM is telling their service people that they are willing to fight the claims instead of warrantying them out when a power adder has been used. GM is also instructing the dealerships to cut 20% of goodwill immediately.
I'm guessing that Chrysler will take the same stance in these tough economic times, trying to carve out as much warranty stuff as possible in favor of customer pay (bend over...). I haven't done any powertrain mods to my truck yet, and it may stay that way
11-20-2008, 06:40 PM
#2
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I'm running a Smarty on mine and wouldn't feel that Dodge was screwing me if some component failed due to a power adder I installed. You pay to play. We need for these companies to improve their quality and offerings and thrive. I don't see how they can when we overwhelm the stock drivetrain w/added power and expect the warranty to cover it.
11-20-2008, 07:08 PM
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If the component failure was directly related to the increased power I agree with you, but they aren't concerned with the cause of failure or even related components.
For example: if the technician scans the computer to shut off a check engine light caused by a loose gas cap and finds evidence of a power adder. The technician has been instructed to void the powertrain warranty. The power adder has not caused any failure, but it's presence is enough to void the warranty.
They were also discussing biodiesel usage. If the tech is making a fuel system related repair he must take a fuel sample. The GM regional rep or the service manager has the option of sending the sample out to confirm the percentage of biodiesel fuel, if it exceeds the allowed 5% then the warranty will be voided.
For example: if the technician scans the computer to shut off a check engine light caused by a loose gas cap and finds evidence of a power adder. The technician has been instructed to void the powertrain warranty. The power adder has not caused any failure, but it's presence is enough to void the warranty.
They were also discussing biodiesel usage. If the tech is making a fuel system related repair he must take a fuel sample. The GM regional rep or the service manager has the option of sending the sample out to confirm the percentage of biodiesel fuel, if it exceeds the allowed 5% then the warranty will be voided.
11-20-2008, 07:10 PM
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I Think of that as stealing if you are trying to get a free tranny for you going out putting 1000 feet to the ground, and trying to say it was dodges or chevys fault. I'm pretty sure that is not what the warrenty is for. All you are doing is just making everyone elses warrenty prices go up. That is not what the truck that you bought was designed for. 2 PENNIES
11-20-2008, 07:41 PM
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I Think of that as stealing if you are trying to get a free tranny for you going out putting 1000 feet to the ground, and trying to say it was dodges or chevys fault. I'm pretty sure that is not what the warrenty is for. All you are doing is just making everyone elses warrenty prices go up. That is not what the truck that you bought was designed for. 2 PENNIES
You play you pay...unless it ain't broke because you played. I like that better, everybody wins.
11-20-2008, 08:01 PM
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For example: if the technician scans the computer to shut off a check engine light caused by a loose gas cap and finds evidence of a power adder. The technician has been instructed to void the powertrain warranty. The power adder has not caused any failure, but it's presence is enough to void the warranty.
The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.
In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act.
Finally, consumers may seek redress in the courts for alleged violations of the Magnuson-Moss Act. A consumer who has been injured by the noncompliance of a supplier may bring an action in state court if the amount in controversy is between $25 and $50,000, or a class action in state court if the number of class plaintiffs is less than 100. If the jurisdictional amount, or number of plaintiffs, exceed these limits, such an action may be brought in federal district court.[3] Moreover, one of the key aids to the effectiveness of the Act is that a prevailing plaintiff may recover reasonable costs of suit, including attorney fees."
11-20-2008, 08:15 PM
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I have a friend who tried several programmers etc over the past several years on his 2004.5 Dodge. He kept saying that the power quit or faded out at a particular speed/rpm - something like that anyway - and none of the programmers were worth ****! After the 3rd or 4th programmer, every time complaining about the power at a particular speed, I finally asked him if he had the dealership test his lift pump as that seemed to me to be the more likely culpret. Long story short, it was the lift pump. By that time he had removed the last programmer, sold it, and his truck was back to stock. Two weeks after they fixed his lift pump under warranty, he had another fuel problem of some kind, was into the dealership, they ran diagnostics, found evidence of the programmers and voided the balance of his warranty. He was one unhappy guy as whatever was wrong cost him a little over $2500 to fix.
Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. He decided he was DONE with Dodge after the warranty voiding, bought a new 2009 Duramax 4x4, had it two days and the new programmer was on it. I can't wait for him to have a problem and find out that GM is going to test his truck when it has a problem and possibly go through having another warranty voided.
He would never see the 'you play-you pay' side of anything, he thinks all he does is just OK, no second thoughts until some penalty smacks him upside the head.
CD
Fast forward to a couple weeks ago. He decided he was DONE with Dodge after the warranty voiding, bought a new 2009 Duramax 4x4, had it two days and the new programmer was on it. I can't wait for him to have a problem and find out that GM is going to test his truck when it has a problem and possibly go through having another warranty voided.
He would never see the 'you play-you pay' side of anything, he thinks all he does is just OK, no second thoughts until some penalty smacks him upside the head.
CD
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11-20-2008, 08:16 PM
#8
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I agree that it is wrong, I'm only repeating what the service manager at a large chevrolet dealership told his technicians. I'm aware of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, and some of the technicians asked about it specifically. The service manager stated that GM's legal department had done their research and was willing to fight it where a power adder had been used. The service manager also stated that the 2009+ model owners manuals would have specific language addressing the issue.
11-20-2008, 08:33 PM
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Interesting reading....
But, you must remember that the engine operating program in the factory computer is designed to cause that particular engine to operate within a set of parameters that meet the current emission standards at the time it was manufactured. That programing technically is part of the Federal Emissions equipment and as such, should not be changed by anyone except the dealer. So what would you rather see happen? Have the dealer void the powertrain warranty on your truck because you got caught playing OR have them void the warranty and notify the smog police and have them come banging on your door? Has it happened that way yet? I don't know but I feel certain it will soon. 
11-20-2008, 08:39 PM
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I was working at a Chevrolet store today, granted the information here is geared to the Duramax trucks, I believe that Dodge/Cummins will be following suit.
During a service technician meeting the manager was talking about power adders, both on cars and specifically on the diesel trucks. Some Duramax owners have been keeping a spare ECM to hide the power adder from the dealership, and bragging about it on their forums. GM has been monitoring their forums and has been researching ways to defeat them. The dealership is reading data from the TCM, and making the call based on the amount of torque sensed by the transmission. Apparently the maximum torque possible with a stock configuration is 728 ft/lb at the flywheel. If the torque input exceeds 750 ft/lb the dealership has been instructed to blacklist the truck, voiding the powertrain warranty.
During a service technician meeting the manager was talking about power adders, both on cars and specifically on the diesel trucks. Some Duramax owners have been keeping a spare ECM to hide the power adder from the dealership, and bragging about it on their forums. GM has been monitoring their forums and has been researching ways to defeat them. The dealership is reading data from the TCM, and making the call based on the amount of torque sensed by the transmission. Apparently the maximum torque possible with a stock configuration is 728 ft/lb at the flywheel. If the torque input exceeds 750 ft/lb the dealership has been instructed to blacklist the truck, voiding the powertrain warranty.
Yeah I dunno who told you that but theyre wrong and/or trying to scare you. The TCM doesnt store $@&$. Swap ECM's and you're in the clear. I 100% guarantee it.
And plus, the desired/delivered torque tables in the ECM dont mean much either. I can make a 600rwhp tune that doesnt exceed "750 ft lbs" as far as the ECM is concerned. The ECM only knows what the base torque and torque limited injection quantity table denotes. If you are injecting a ton of fuel (to make a lot of power) but keep the torque tables stock, its none the wiser. Its not like you just put "1400 ft lbs" into the fuel map tables and then the truck automatically makes that to the rear wheels. Its purely for reference by the ECM.
ben
11-20-2008, 08:48 PM
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uhhh....WRONG! Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states "The Act is meant to provide consumers with access to reasonable and effective remedies where there is a breach of warranty on a consumer product. The Act provides for informal dispute-settlement procedures and for actions brought by the government and by private parties.
The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.
In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act.
Finally, consumers may seek redress in the courts for alleged violations of the Magnuson-Moss Act. A consumer who has been injured by the noncompliance of a supplier may bring an action in state court if the amount in controversy is between $25 and $50,000, or a class action in state court if the number of class plaintiffs is less than 100. If the jurisdictional amount, or number of plaintiffs, exceed these limits, such an action may be brought in federal district court.[3] Moreover, one of the key aids to the effectiveness of the Act is that a prevailing plaintiff may recover reasonable costs of suit, including attorney fees."
The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.
In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act.
Finally, consumers may seek redress in the courts for alleged violations of the Magnuson-Moss Act. A consumer who has been injured by the noncompliance of a supplier may bring an action in state court if the amount in controversy is between $25 and $50,000, or a class action in state court if the number of class plaintiffs is less than 100. If the jurisdictional amount, or number of plaintiffs, exceed these limits, such an action may be brought in federal district court.[3] Moreover, one of the key aids to the effectiveness of the Act is that a prevailing plaintiff may recover reasonable costs of suit, including attorney fees."
ben
11-20-2008, 09:01 PM
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Ben,
I have no stake in what a chevrolet dealer does with a duramax, they weren't even talking to me, much less trying to scare me. I was a fly on the wall during a technician meeting after I completed my work with the technicians. The service manager was pretty specific with the details. He stated that the TCM could be read to see how much torque was put to the transmission, and that if that number was 750 ft/lb or more, that was evidence that a power adder was used regardless of an ECM swap and the technician needed to print the results and notify the manager so they could flag the vin and void the powertrain warranty. I don't know jack about the system in question, but i see no reason for the manager to lie to his technicians.
My point in making the thread was to convey that the manufacturer, GM in this case, is trying to reduce costs by shafting people out of their warranties. I would like to add a mild program/tuner to my CTD in an effort to increase fuel economy, but I am not willing to risk my remaining 78K of warranty doing it unless I can get someone from Chrysler to sign off on it.
I have no stake in what a chevrolet dealer does with a duramax, they weren't even talking to me, much less trying to scare me. I was a fly on the wall during a technician meeting after I completed my work with the technicians. The service manager was pretty specific with the details. He stated that the TCM could be read to see how much torque was put to the transmission, and that if that number was 750 ft/lb or more, that was evidence that a power adder was used regardless of an ECM swap and the technician needed to print the results and notify the manager so they could flag the vin and void the powertrain warranty. I don't know jack about the system in question, but i see no reason for the manager to lie to his technicians.
My point in making the thread was to convey that the manufacturer, GM in this case, is trying to reduce costs by shafting people out of their warranties. I would like to add a mild program/tuner to my CTD in an effort to increase fuel economy, but I am not willing to risk my remaining 78K of warranty doing it unless I can get someone from Chrysler to sign off on it.
11-20-2008, 09:23 PM
#13
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Dodge has been doing stuff like this for a while...... Why wouldn't Cheverolet start? It's in there interest too, that way they keep warranty costs down. They are hurting. Ford will even void your warranty. This has been happening for ages. No big deal, you play you pay.
11-20-2008, 09:24 PM
#14
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uhhh....WRONG! Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act states "The Act is meant to provide consumers with access to reasonable and effective remedies where there is a breach of warranty on a consumer product. The Act provides for informal dispute-settlement procedures and for actions brought by the government and by private parties.
The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.
In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act.
Finally, consumers may seek redress in the courts for alleged violations of the Magnuson-Moss Act. A consumer who has been injured by the noncompliance of a supplier may bring an action in state court if the amount in controversy is between $25 and $50,000, or a class action in state court if the number of class plaintiffs is less than 100. If the jurisdictional amount, or number of plaintiffs, exceed these limits, such an action may be brought in federal district court.[3] Moreover, one of the key aids to the effectiveness of the Act is that a prevailing plaintiff may recover reasonable costs of suit, including attorney fees."
The FTC has been mandated by Congress to promulgate rules to encourage the use of alternative dispute resolution, and full warranties may require mediation and/or arbitration as a first step toward settling disputes.
In addition, the federal government has the authority to take injunctive action against a supplier or warrantor who fails to meet the requirements of the act.
Finally, consumers may seek redress in the courts for alleged violations of the Magnuson-Moss Act. A consumer who has been injured by the noncompliance of a supplier may bring an action in state court if the amount in controversy is between $25 and $50,000, or a class action in state court if the number of class plaintiffs is less than 100. If the jurisdictional amount, or number of plaintiffs, exceed these limits, such an action may be brought in federal district court.[3] Moreover, one of the key aids to the effectiveness of the Act is that a prevailing plaintiff may recover reasonable costs of suit, including attorney fees."
It was enacted to protect the owner if he used equivalent replacement parts. Was to ensure competitive pricing on filters, u-joints, etc., Not to protect warranty if you add couple hundred horsepower and change all stock programming.
It is an old argument and one that is never settled. The people that see it one way don't seem to see it the other way no matter what the argument. Seems fruitless to discuss.
If you play you pay is still the bottom line. Wining about voided warranty after doing things that the owners manual very clearly states will void your warranty is just being self serving.
Sorry for the rant. Just my .02.
BTW I have not expected any warranty repairs on mine since the first box I put on at about 7k miles. But I have had injector, water pump, and numerous knit picking things replaced/fixed under warranty. All with the mods on the truck.
11-21-2008, 09:17 AM
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Within days of purchasing my truck I started modding it and have not stopped. I too believe it is stealing from the manufacturer and from the people who do not mod their vehicles b/c they also pay in the end.