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Confusion on egts. and mods

Old 03-11-2017, 04:51 PM
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Confusion on egts. and mods

I just bought a 06 a few months ago to replace a wore out powerstroke. So I have been reading up on Dodge a bit. I have noted that the 1350 egt number has been tossed around as a safe max while towing. That being said I have been looking for ways to keep them numbers down so I'm not a slave to the gauge and can enjoy the ride. I have searched and read countless posts that leave more confused then ever.
Group A says put in a smarty. Group B says smarty numbers are lower but not really as the timing has changed and the combustion event could even be higher inspite of a lower egt. Have also read that larger exhaust may give a lower number as it speeds away the hot gas but again combustion temps are same.
So, what with all that being said what mods within reason should I be looking at to keep things happy while towing. I'm not interested in more power. But I am interested in not seeing piston chunks come out the exhaust. My truck is all stock except I added a 2 micron filter ahead of stock, and gutted intake tube. Gauges being put in next week. Thanks.
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Old 03-12-2017, 08:52 AM
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I think that with still being stock, you shouldn't have to worry about melting pistons. Even with the smarty, unless you mod quite a bit more, you shouldn't have to worry. Advancing timing does heat things up but you will see it on the gauge, exhaust won't cool that quickly, and I think the smarty will defuel if it reads to high.
Maybe someone running a smarty can chime in...
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Old 03-12-2017, 11:29 AM
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After rereading my first post I guess I was not to clear. I'm looking for advice on mods that will drop real world egts. For instance I am taking a hard look at this PSM intake. Is this something that can help keep numbers in check? What about these boost tubes I see that replace the stock air intake hose? I like making small usefull mods if they work. But don't want to get caught in marketing hype. Thanks.
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Old 03-12-2017, 12:41 PM
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If you are looking to really lower EGT's while towing, I would suggest a water injection system. I have used them for many years and in my opinion, they are one of the best ways to keep EGT's under control.

I helped out on a water injection thread a few years ago on and it includes ALOT of input from myself and many other DTR Members on the subject. Here is the link for you to read:

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ection-248415/

Let me know if I can help you or if you have any questions.


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Old 08-10-2017, 09:38 AM
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So is 1350 still the magic number? my Bully PMT clicks to defuel about 1250 (which i rarely hit) and ill usually pedal less or downshift at that point.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by John_P View Post
If you are looking to really lower EGT's while towing, I would suggest a water injection system. I have used them for many years and in my opinion, they are one of the best ways to keep EGT's under control.

I helped out on a water injection thread a few years ago on and it includes ALOT of input from myself and many other DTR Members on the subject. Here is the link for you to read:

https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...ection-248415/

Let me know if I can help you or if you have any questions.


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John _P

^^^^ Best advice you'll get.

Aftermarket intakes will do little more than empty your wallet. On an otherwise stock truck, almost no discernable difference.
Smarty does not defuel for you with high egt. Just so you know. Otherwise I can recommend a Smarty Jr. for your use. Good Product.

With regards to egt measurements, most advice is to measure at the collector just before the turbo as that is the hottest place for the egts. It is hottest there as the gasses from all cylinders meet. Some will tell you that cyl. #6 is hottest. My measured experience on my truck is that #2 is hottest. Can't tell you why. I only offer that so you can take what you hear with a grain of salt and not as established fact. Let common sense be your guide.

I have a gen 2 manifold (splits 3 and 3 instead of 4 and 2 cyl.) I also have 4 egt probes (each with a specific function). Two are at the collector and one each in the middle on either side (one is for cyls. 1-3 the other for cyls. 4-6). Consistently by 100* the ones in either end read lower than those at the collector. So what I am telling you is that when I see 1350* from my gauges at the collector, the other two are reading 1250* or lower and this tells me my individual in cyl temp is doing ok.

Finally, I tow a big 5th wheel with my truck... Have some of the biggest turbos you'll see and many mods. The water injection mentioned by John P. above is the most effective method for reducing that egt heat. I employ it liberally.
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Old 08-10-2017, 04:06 PM
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When my truck was stock the EGT's could reach 1450 on a hot grade pulling a 10,000# 5th whl. A Smarty Jr lowered these 200-250 degrees.
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by soulezoo View Post
^^^^ Best advice you'll get.

Aftermarket intakes will do little more than empty your wallet. On an otherwise stock truck, almost no discernable difference.
Smarty does not defuel for you with high egt. Just so you know. Otherwise I can recommend a Smarty Jr. for your use. Good Product.

With regards to egt measurements, most advice is to measure at the collector just before the turbo as that is the hottest place for the egts. It is hottest there as the gasses from all cylinders meet. Some will tell you that cyl. #6 is hottest. My measured experience on my truck is that #2 is hottest. Can't tell you why. I only offer that so you can take what you hear with a grain of salt and not as established fact. Let common sense be your guide.

I have a gen 2 manifold (splits 3 and 3 instead of 4 and 2 cyl.) I also have 4 egt probes (each with a specific function). Two are at the collector and one each in the middle on either side (one is for cyls. 1-3 the other for cyls. 4-6). Consistently by 100* the ones in either end read lower than those at the collector. So what I am telling you is that when I see 1350* from my gauges at the collector, the other two are reading 1250* or lower and this tells me my individual in cyl temp is doing ok.

Finally, I tow a big 5th wheel with my truck... Have some of the biggest turbos you'll see and many mods. The water injection mentioned by John P. above is the most effective method for reducing that egt heat. I employ it liberally.
-------------------
Thanks for your kind words buddy and also for the back-up on the thread!

------
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Old 08-12-2017, 10:14 AM
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My Smarty did not affect EGT's on my 24V, nor will it defuel. The probe is located at the Y exit on the stock exhaust manifold. The recommended max EGT, as I understand it, is 1250F and that is the redline on the a-pillar gauge I have. My EGT limiting technique is watch the gauge and modulate the right pedal when I tow my 5er.

Everything I've looked into, besides stepping up a turbo size, indicates that water/meth injection makes the biggest difference in reducing EGT. Gonna have to read that thread...
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Old 08-12-2017, 04:05 PM
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These engines were tested at 1500 degrees. You can run 1500 degrees all day long.
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by CRF450R RIDER View Post
These engines were tested at 1500 degrees. You can run 1500 degrees all day long.
-----------------------------------------------------------
CR450R RIDER:

Sorry Sir, but I am going to have to disagree with you on your statements; "These engines were tested at 1500 degrees. You can run 1500 degrees all day long."

I don't know who may have given you that information, but with all due respect to you I personally do not think it is accurate. I am friends with Mark Chapple who is the owner of "TST Products." Mark is a mechanical engineer and worked for Cummins in the Mid-Range Engine Plant in Columbus, Indiana for over thirty (30) years. Mark was on the early research and development of the project to install the 5.9 Cummins Engines in the 1988-1989 Dodge Ram 2500 Pickup. Mark has told me Cummins did extensive testing on the 5.9 Cummins Engines running them for hours to see just how hot the EGT's could get before the engine saw internal cylinder and cylinder head damage.
That testing showed that the upper limit on EGT's was approximately 1300 degrees IF the pyrometer was installed in the manifold and 1,000 degrees if the pyrometer was installed in the down pipe BEHIND the turbocharger.
With personal engine rebuilding experience on my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve
Dodge, I can tell you that those figures Cummins recommended at the time that I believe they are accurate for a "guide" to owners of these trucks. I would also add that in my opinion, the later model Dodge CTD CR Trucks tend to run hotter than the earlier 12 or 24 valve models and I personally saw this on my 2006 Dodge CTD CR. For reference, I would see coolant temperatures on my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve of 160-180 degrees where my 2006 would usually run between 190-200 degrees. In driving and working on the 4th Gen Trucks, their coolant temperatures seem to run even higher than that when "pushed" hard or when towing.

Can a 3rd or 4th Gen Dodge CTD CR Pickup take 1,500 degrees? My answer to that would be yes, BUT, over the long run you are doing damage to the cylinders and the cylinder heads. So,....as I have said here before, "To each his own." With a rebuilt 5.9 or 6.7 Cummins Engine now running close to $10,000.00 (with labor to R&R etc.) the individual owners and members here will have to decide how hot they want to run their trucks.

Respectfully,

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Old 08-13-2017, 11:23 AM
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I bought a 12V torque plate kit from Chapple a number of years ago at a TDR sponsered event and that's what he indicated to me.

Edit: It would actually be optimum if there were six EGT probes with one located at each exhaust manifold port to monitor the EGT at each cylinder. This is done on airplanes and the injectors can be balanced to match intake manifold airflow. One cylinder may be running hotter and one would not know when the probe is in exhaust Y of the manifold. It is a Cummins, so not as "fragile" as a Continental or Lycoming, but on a long pull towing a trailer, one of the cylinders could be hotter than the 1250F being monitored. FWIW...
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Old 08-14-2017, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Desert5600 View Post
I bought a 12V torque plate kit from Chapple a number of years ago at a TDR sponsered event and that's what he indicated to me.

Edit: It would actually be optimum if there were six EGT probes with one located at each exhaust manifold port to monitor the EGT at each cylinder. This is done on airplanes and the injectors can be balanced to match intake manifold airflow. One cylinder may be running hotter and one would not know when the probe is in exhaust Y of the manifold. It is a Cummins, so not as "fragile" as a Continental or Lycoming, but on a long pull towing a trailer, one of the cylinders could be hotter than the 1250F being monitored. FWIW...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Desert5600:

Thanks for your reply and comments Sir!

You are right about the "multiple" EGT probes being a good idea. FWIW,...my friend Dan Scheid from Scheid Diesel has built the fastest rear engine rail dragster in the U.S. along with two, Super Stock Pro Pulling Trucks. All of his race vehicles run "multiple" EGT probes to monitor the temps in all cylinders.

-------
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Old 08-14-2017, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by John_P View Post
-----------------------------------------------------------
CR450R RIDER:

Sorry Sir, but I am going to have to disagree with you on your statements; "These engines were tested at 1500 degrees. You can run 1500 degrees all day long."

I don't know who may have given you that information, but with all due respect to you I personally do not think it is accurate. I am friends with Mark Chapple who is the owner of "TST Products." Mark is a mechanical engineer and worked for Cummins in the Mid-Range Engine Plant in Columbus, Indiana for over thirty (30) years. Mark was on the early research and development of the project to install the 5.9 Cummins Engines in the 1988-1989 Dodge Ram 2500 Pickup. Mark has told me Cummins did extensive testing on the 5.9 Cummins Engines running them for hours to see just how hot the EGT's could get before the engine saw internal cylinder and cylinder head damage.
That testing showed that the upper limit on EGT's was approximately 1300 degrees IF the pyrometer was installed in the manifold and 1,000 degrees if the pyrometer was installed in the down pipe BEHIND the turbocharger.
With personal engine rebuilding experience on my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve
Dodge, I can tell you that those figures Cummins recommended at the time that I believe they are accurate for a "guide" to owners of these trucks. I would also add that in my opinion, the later model Dodge CTD CR Trucks tend to run hotter than the earlier 12 or 24 valve models and I personally saw this on my 2006 Dodge CTD CR. For reference, I would see coolant temperatures on my 1996 Dodge CTD 12 valve of 160-180 degrees where my 2006 would usually run between 190-200 degrees. In driving and working on the 4th Gen Trucks, their coolant temperatures seem to run even higher than that when "pushed" hard or when towing.

Can a 3rd or 4th Gen Dodge CTD CR Pickup take 1,500 degrees? My answer to that would be yes, BUT, over the long run you are doing damage to the cylinders and the cylinder heads. So,....as I have said here before, "To each his own." With a rebuilt 5.9 or 6.7 Cummins Engine now running close to $10,000.00 (with labor to R&R etc.) the individual owners and members here will have to decide how hot they want to run their trucks.

Respectfully,

John_P
That testing you're referring to was not the 5.9 CR. All the information i have came across says that the 5.9 CR was tested at 1500* for 24 hours. If this information is not correct, i would love to be corrected so i know the correct information.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:13 AM
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Melting aluminum

Aluminum melts at 1221*F. The pistons in Cummins engines are of an alloy that withstands a little more than that, not much. We used to have a guy here that is a Cummins engineer in Illinois, he's not been here quite awhile. Too bad because he had some qualified opinions on the subject.

The pistons in the engines are oil cooled. In 04.5 and up engines, there are "J" hooks that run under the pistons and splash a good bit of oil on the underside of the piston crown at BDC. Engine oil heat is removed to an extent with a water to oil heat exchanger located inside the block.

If you've ever examined a torn apart engine with some miles on it, you'll discover that the oil has a tendency to "coke" under the piston crown and this diminishes the ability to cool the piston over time. This is also another strong argument "for" using synthetic oil as they have a higher smoke point than conventional oils and better resist this "coking".

What I can tell you from personal experience is that 1600* for 10 seconds can ruin an engine. I have the wall of shame melted piston trophy to demonstrate. Do you really want to run at 1500* all day long? I personally believe you won't last very long at all at that temp.

However, it's your engine, your money do what you are comfortable with.

The melted piston I alluded to above occurred while pushing over 1150 hp on squeeze. So, that is obviously not typical usage either. YMMV.
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