Ramasaur

Ok, just a question.... if I'm reading that correctly the 03-305 is only producing an additional 87.9 hp? Where is the remaining advertised 38.1 hp? Not to nit pick, but beyond the EGT defueling, I purchased my entire system with the understanding from published advertising and direct contact with Banks reps. that I would gain an increase of 126 with Banks Six-gun/speed loader and Banks recommended airflow improvements. I have yet to get mine dynoed, but if this information is accurate, Banks is false advertising their products. 38 hp is a significant deviation from published ratings. Makes me feel a bit taken. I would like to here from Banks on this issue, cause I dropped almost two grand for false advertising.

SjLingenfelter

See thats the thing with BANKS (not tryin to smash) but the power that its supose to add is not all there its only like 85% of the power. But yet if you get a TST or BD or Edge its a true 60-120hp......

SuperGewl

Here's my latest on the Banks Six Gun while pulling my 11.5k 5VR. I just went camping in Randle, Washington, the same place ans route I drove before the Six Gun. At first I wasn't that all impressed with the Six Gun going North on I-5. I guess it took a little time for the tranny computer to better learn the differences after it was installed. The Banks Six Gun did give better MPG's. On the way back the Six Gun did impress me by being able to pull the hills and maintain speed within 3 mph.
The pulling power with the Six Gun is great and the Pre-Turbo EGTs never got above 12k the Post-Turbo EGTs neve got above 800. The only real down draw of the sytem is was that when I had to take it out of CRUZE it took a little recover but when it did I was still passing most people cars and trucks pulling 5vrs have the size of mine.

For those looking at installing a Banks Six Gun and then removing it prior to going to the dealer, FOGET ABOUT IT it can't be done because of the way it's installed. You would have to remove the wire harness every time you go to the dealer and trust me your NOT going to do that

SoCal-305

Thanks for that tidbit. I'm now moving away from Banks based on that it's a PITA to take the control unit off (as I thought it would be). What's the sense having a non-detectable box if you can't remove it easy?

I also note that there could have been prior product mis-representation from Banks as well on both the TDR and DTR, which doesn't make me want to support their market.

SuperGewl

Don't get me wrong If you decide to BOMB they will be able to detect it either by sight or looking in the various computers.
Personally anyone that BOMBS should take responsibility of the things they break and not have DC pay for it, however if it is NOT obvious that what you did to BOMB the truck caused the problem then they should take the time to prove it instead of just saying your warranty is VOID
With all that said, that is a chance you have to take if you want to get the performance out the truck that DC & Cummins knows this engine can achieve.
I think Banks does their homework and make sure that their box will NOT harm anything if you folllow their instructions
Remember you BOMB you pay, that's the way of the world

Hounddog

So far I've been following BOXES since 03 on SEVERAL differant sites .Its not the TOP of my list yet but when I buy I'm 90% sure it will be Banks!

PeterT

Ramasaur,
There are three differences between the +126 HP number that you are referring to and the +87.9 HP number that I presented.
1. The +126 is taken from a load test and is a best gain; that is, the data is taken at specific RPM points and compared before and after. The best increase that we find at a specific RPM is the best gain. It often does not occur at the same RPM as the horsepower peak, but is meaningful because it usually occurs at or near the shift point. The +87.9 data is taken from an acceleration test. Due to the nature of acceleration dyno tests, it is not really very meaningful to present a best gain; peak-to-peak horsepower is really the only valid data that you can pull from this type of test. It you want to make comparisons between the two types of tests, it would be most appropriate to compare peak-to-peak data from both tests.
2. The +126 HP is a comparison between a completely stock truck and a Six-Gun Bundle. This is why in our literature you will see “with recommended airflow improvements”. The +87.9 is a comparison of a truck with airflow improvements already installed to adding a Six-Gun with the same airflow improvements. Therefore the baseline power of the truck that we tested was already improved moderately by enhancing the airflow. I don’t have exact data, but my estimate would be about 10 HP. Please note, this was the only truck that was tested with airflow improvements installed, the others were tested with stock exhaust. This primarily had to do with the availability of the vehicles and time constraints.
3. The +126 HP data comes from a 235 HP truck. The 305 clearly makes more power in its stock form, but is limited by the amount of fuel pressure that we can sustain. The end result is not quite as much of an improvement from stock as the 235. The Six-Gun on the 235 gives us about a 68% improvement in peak-to-peak power while the 305 gives us about a 40% increase.

If you have the latest calibration, I estimate that the complete system that you purchased for your 305 gives you a peak-to-peak gain of around 98 HP, and our advertised peak-to-peak prior to this was +103.9, a difference of about 6 HP. That could certainly be accounted for in the differences between the stock baselines of the 235 and the 305. You can check to see if you have the latest calibration by looking at the clear label on the back side of the Six-Gun Module. If it has the number 62976-05E, it is the latest calibration. If it has anything other than that, it is the earlier calibration, and you are welcome to send it in to us for a free reflash. Just contact our Customer Service Department at (888) 839-5600. They will make arrangements for you to send it in. You pay the shipping one way, we pay to ship it back, that is the only cost involved.

So-Cal 305,
I will PM you to discuss the HP data. There are some issues with the data that will make it difficult to compare, but I would like to present the details to you.

Peter T

Ramasaur

Peter T- No where in any literature that I have come across or was given back in Mar mentioned the 103.9hp rating. Banks reps are quoting 126hp for HO, as well as your current advertising in various magazines. If the peak to peak is 103, advertise it and back it up with dyno tests. Consumers rely on reputable manufacturers to provide valid ratings to determine which manufacturer is suitable for their needs. With Banks' Fuzzy Number advertising, you ARE misleading consumers on the power of your systems. I have sent in my six-gun already for recalibration. There are reliable boxes on the market that can achieve these results or more, at over half the costs, that have dyno tests to back up claims. The point of my responses here is to let Banks know that hundreds, if not thousands of people are hesitant to purchase your system because of Banks claims in HP gains without valid published verification tests. I paid 2k for a system that was advertised to me(to include Banks CS reps) to increase HP "very similar to the SO-126 gains), what I got is significantly less, that makes consumers leary of what other claims Banks is not upfront about...ie.. exceeding rail pressure...etc.....

PeterT

Ramasaur,
Our printed information always says “up to” before stating horsepower or torque numbers, and that is simply because we cannot represent every situation in an ad or piece of literature. If you understood otherwise from your sales representative, there is not a whole lot that I can do to change that. I tried to explain differences between peak-to-peak numbers from an acceleration test and best gain numbers from a load test in my previous post, but that doesn’t seem to have satisfied you. If you are still unhappy, I would be happy to arrange for you to receive a full refund on your Six-Gun if you would like to return it. If that is what you would like, contact me by e-mail (ptreydte@bankspower.com) and I will make arrangements for you.

Peter T

Ramasaur

Peter,
That wasn't my intention at all, I accepted your explanation, and I am not unpleased with my system, I will wait and pass further judgement when I get the reflashed version back tomorrow... I was just making a point that the 103 hp #'s never came up at all in all my conversations with your reps. It was always "close to" the 126....when I push farther they had repeatedly stated 118-126.... What will the Banks High Ram do for me? Will it increase anything? or is it just a dress up item.... The Point is... I know you make great products....if it makes 103, state that it does and let your reputation for high quality go from there....

PeterT

Ramasaur,
Many people wonder if the use of the High-Ram will add power. You should not expect a power increase by installing the High-Ram unless you enhance fuel delivery along with it. The High-Ram is designed to increase boost pressure in the cylinders by removing restriction to airflow. If you look at the High-Ram in comparison to the stock piece, the difference is pretty obvious. Anytime that you have a restriction to airflow in a boosted system, you will experience some amount of pressure loss to overcome the restriction. Removing the restriction means that more of the boost pressure is available to reach the cylinder, add fuel to, and make power without elevating the EGT’s. The net effect is that you get more boost through the engine without having to work the turbo harder, spinning it faster, and creating more heat.

The only test data that I have on High-Ram’s is as used in a system where we use the airflow benefit to add fuel within a maximum EGT level, so I can’t give you much on the effects of the High-Ram by itself, but I do know that some people report lower EGT’s and better boost response with it.

And it looks good.

Peter T

doug

In my opinion, no. The primary issue with elevated rail pressure on the 305 is the pressure relief valve itself (the others, i.e rail itself and injector reliability, appear to have been settled). It is a falicy to refer to the capacity of the rail itself (which is in the 30,000 psi region) and then apply that to the 305 HP engine and say that there is plenty of margin. The issue is not the rail - it is the pressure relief valve. There are two components to the relief valve issue, both centering around the fact that you don't want it to blow:

1. apparently there is a wide variability in the actual set point of the valve, given the fact that is is a simple, if not crude, device. That means we cannot generalize and say that rail pressure can be raised to a value that is close to the valve set point (considered to be about 29,000). In other words there is no way to predict what precise rail pressure you particular truck will sustain before the valve goes.

2. Once the valve goes, it's integrety is never the same. the valve ball, so I have been told, degrades, and the spring is not as strong anymore. the result is that you have a weaker relief valve which means it is easier to blow the next time. bottom line is that if you blow this valve, dealer service is required to restore the original integrity of the rail as manifested through the pressure relief valve.

you have to decide for yourself how high you are willing to go. Edge and diesel dynamics, for example, found that the original EZ represented a risk, and so they tuned it back to 65 HP on the dyno, removing settings 5 and 6. Other mfgs have come out with statements of their approach to rail pressure: Banks says 24,500 without the speed loader and 27,000+ with the speed loader. they make dern close to 100HP on a 305. Other mfgs have just forged ahead with 100HP boxes, so they have to be in the 26,500 region at least. Van Aaken stays at 23,600 psi if memory serves.

SoCal-305

Speak of the devil........

PeterT just informed me that you have a Six Gun coming in your direction for testing and comparison to your existing experiences with other fueling boxes. I look forward to your unbias perspective. ( especially when comparing the Volumizer with the Six Gun)

Also just thinking out loud here, I wonder if it would be wise to replace the 555 pressure relief valve with the 600 one in the event the relief valve does blow on a 555 motor? That could be a possible performance upgrade for the 555 motor and running a more aggressive pressure box. Going one step further here, why is the pressure relief valve only a dealer-servicable item? Maybe some of us shade-tree mechanics could do this on our own.

doug

yes, I do have a Banks box on the way, and yes I will run the boxes on the same truck on the same dyno on the same day. how cool will that data be

It is my understanding that DC heavily controls the replacment pressure relief valves, that it requires STAR approval for a DC tech to obtain one, and that such a service event gets a lot of documented attention .

I don't know for sure of course, but I would expect that the two valves have different part numbers and that it would void the warranty to put the 600 valve on a 305. As for being able to change the valve yourself, assuming you could even get the part, I would imagine that Cummins could except that they are contractually prevented from working on the Dodge trucks after, what, 2003 or something like that? (someone chime in with the right answer here if you know it). A guy from Cummins Intermountain told me that anyway.

There are some things that DC heavily controls, and this is one of them. I'm not sure it is even possible to obtain the parts and the required tools to safely perform the R&R. somebody might know the answer to that. In the end, I'm not sure I would want to do it -- the available energy stored in the rail itself is, well, a cache of cumbustable oil at 30,000 psi.

Hounddog

Is not this valve housed in the pump itself and a non servicable item? requires pump replacment?