AK RAM

Anyone using a Mac Products Air Induction System? It looks like a good setup and the dyno numbers they have posted are nice....but I have never heard anyone talk about it. Thinking about buying one. Got any good or bad experiences/hearsay/advice? Thanks!

Take a look-see here: http://www.rpmoutlet.com/dodgec0.htm

The Boss Hog

AK RAM,
No first hand knowledge of the unit, but I also have been looking at it. Seams to me the smooth walls and gental curves would have to be less restrictive than the stock setup. Besides, chrome is always faster

The Boss Hog
(Did I just say that . . . )

AK RAM

Yep...that's what I was thinking, verses the units that just replace the air box like the Scotty III, etc., and it does look good , doesn't it. I am curious to hear from someone who has it installed. None of the other air intakes that folks talk about here claim HP gains that high. Just curious if there is any truth to their claim.

I have been looking at exhaust systems a lot lately as well, and the exhaust systems that they sell on that site are the cheapest I have found yet....especially their stainless steel system.

Push Rod

Recognizing that I am biased towards the Ram Air III, I can see a couple problems with the Mac box:

1) Chrome and stainless pipe tends to heat soak pretty good. This heat will be transferred to the air charge moving through the system.

2) They've blocked the front side of the filter off from the airflow coming through the grill, leaving only the restrictive fender inlet to gather air from. This inlet doesn't give enough air, and if you step up in power, the system will need to draw air from somewhere. Since the front side is blocked off, you'll be getting underhood air.

3) Airboxes have been dynoed on the 03 to give 20 HP. IMO, this is probably where they are getting their numbers from. But this gain on the dyno has only been seen at higher elevations (5000 ft+).

Rod

The Boss Hog

PushRod
I appreciate your honesty . I have considered the Ram Air III but I do have one concern. In Florida, we tend to get very heavy rains during the summer. I appears to me that any ram-air system would tend to ingest a lot of raw water, not just water vapor. What effect does this have on the filter element? on the engine components (turbo, intercooler)? on the actual performance?
Thanks,

The Boss Hog
(still learnin' . . . )

doug

My thoughts align well with Rods, but in my book that Mac gets a zero for cold air induction. This thing is really just another under-hood, open element filter that gives you more air (than stock), but (like all the others) its all warm under-hood air. probably warmer than other open element filters too! The differences I can see with other open element filters have to do with filter placement and that bonehead chrome/stainless pipe:

1. It looks to me like they've placed the filter a bit closer to the radiator (than other open element solutions). that might yield a slightly lower incoming air temperature. not a bad idea, really, if they hadn't used that lousy metal pipe to warm the air back up!

2. The metal pipe has "I heat incoming air" written all over it. Come on, Mac, any cool air advantage you get from forward filter placement will be quickly negated by passing all that air through a small diameter warm metal pipe before it even enters the intercooler. Metal is a great heat conductor, small diameter means greater surface area to conduct heat, and this will quickly transfer heat from the engine to the incoming air. pretty stupid idea, if you ask me.

It amazes me how, of all the after market intake designers out there, Scotty is the only one that gets it -- bring cool air in from the outside, and pass it through an insulating plastic duct. A small diameter heat conducting metal pipe is the worst thing available to use for cold air intake. leave the cool looking stainless pipe material for exhaust systems where you actually want heat transfer to occur.

The problem with the way most of these (after market intake) devices are marketed is "HP". Anytime you provide more air, you may get some small HP improvement, easily measured on rollers, but thats not the reason to buy an intake system. The real reason to buy an intake system is to reduce EGTs while driving down the road. Unless of course you bought your truck just to run it on a dyno. Hats off to scotty for telling it like it is (its about EGTs while driving, not HP on a dyno) and for targeting the right objective (cool air).

oh, and I have very little patience for technobabble. For me, the Mac gets a swift kick into next week for telling unsubstantiated stories about how their filter "straitens [sic] and smoothes the incoming air".

Getting to the real benefit of after market intake systems (EGTs), my guess is that this Mac system will probably perform as well or slightly worse than any other open element filter out there. That stupid metal pipe is just counter productive to the #1 goal of providing lots of cool air.

The best way for an intake system to reduce EGTs is to bring in cool air from the outside and pass it through a large diameter insulating duct system. even the stock system does that.

Doug

P.S. how come I don't show up as "doug" anymore?

Scotty

I too had the concern about the air intake getting heavy rain.
I cannot argue your concern. However, Fiverbob is in your area and to date he has not experienced any issues. [other then ones outside of the diesel and more about is multiple names ]
We have had some real heavy rains here too. This summer we had a rain that dumped several inches in a very short time and Rod had no issues. [I did not have my truck yet.]
I have also been in some very recent very heavy snow storms and checked the intake at fuel ups to see if the system was ingesting the snow...There was no evidence of this in the air box.
I also removed the air box and turbo inlet hose to see if there was any trailings of moisture in the hose or at the turbo...nothing.

This does not mean there was absolutely nothing in there as the factory air box can get mositure too. Perhaps not as much but some.
On the 2nd gen Rams, on two occasions I had a factory air box filled with snow. Once on my 96 and once on my 98 prior to the Scotty Air II. The paper filters where severely compromised and needed to be replaced.
The good thing about the reuseable filters is that they will not breakdown from the moisture like the paper elements.

Don't some of the big rigs have external filter canisters that are subjected to outside elements in a big way?

In answer to your question...yes it is possible to get moisture.
No, we have not experienced any problems to date. Nor have any been reported so far.

Hope this helps.

In regards to HP. It is possible to get more fuel from the ECM if theres more air available if the sensor reflect this in a manner that causes the computer to balance the fuel/air mixture.
I do not make this claim. However, some folks have told me they have netted this result. I do know that on a stock truck I felt a better response in the 1700-2500 rpm range under load.
EGT reduction is the goal with my systems.

Scotty

The Boss Hog

Again Scotty, I appreciate the straightup answer. I am sure if there was a problem WaterSoakedBob would have let us know


Doug, just to clarify. I'm not advocating the Mac or any other system. I simply asked a question and Scotty provided a great answer. Now it sounds like you have some good knowledge in this area so I would appreciate knowing just what the temp rise would be in the Mac 4 inch diameter tube compared to the temp rise in the turbo, especialy during high boost conditions. Also, what is the smallest diameter opening that the air passes through in a Ram Air III system? Thanks,

The Boss Hog
(still learnin' . . . )

Scotty

4" inlet at the filter to turbo inlet hose is the smallest.
7-1/4" x 2-3/4" front inlet.
5-1/2" x 3" for the fender inlet at its largest side and 5-1/2" x 2-1/2" at the tapered side of the filter inlet to a 12" long conical filter that is 4" Diam at the nose end and 7.5" at the filter flange end. The filter also has an internal plenum that assists in air flow.
That is an aFe design.
This system also has an end cap to seal off virtually all underhood air/heat from entering the engine.
CooOoOooL

Scotty

doug

boss hog, yea I knew you were not advocating or recommending the Mac. my incredulity was directed at Mac for what I think is a stupid idea counterproductive to the very reason we put on after market intake systems.

and over the holidays my net access is pretty hit and miss. sorry for the delay...

Scotty answered the dimmentional questions. as for heat rise, well, it will certainly be very small in the Mac intake pipe compared to that in the turbo, but that isn't the real concern I have. my point is that you want the air coming into the compressor side of the turbo to be cool -- cooler the better. This is the air that gets pressurized by the compressor and then cooled by the intercooler.

The object of the "after market intake" idea is to increase volume (by removing constriction) and inject cool air. Scotty does both. All the others do only the first.

Among the "others" who supply lots of under-hood air, the Mac does something uniquely questionable by passing the the air through a metal pipe. There are two problems with this approach, both related to heating up the incoming air: (1) The pipe is near the engine and will be warmed by the air in the engine compartment. heat will transfer from the engine compartment, warm up the pipe, and the pipe will warm up the air. (2) since the pipe is attached to the turbocharger, and since metal is a good heat conductor, the heat from the turbo itself will transfer by convection to the pipe, heating it up further. This transfers heat from the turbocharger compressor directly into the intake pipe, insuring that incoming air is warmed up.

I am unable to quantify the heat rise because there are too many variables. I am only trying to point out that if your objective is to introduce cool air into the compressor, the Mac systems appears to me to be the least able to fulfil that objective, among all the after market intake systems available today. This solution comes closest, in my opinion, to guarenteeing that the incoming air is warmed to the same temperature as the turbocharger compressor.

why do they do that? because they were thinking more about looks than performance.

AK RAM

Ouch! You guys really tore the MAC a new one. Good info...now I can think of a reason for and against both.…but , I'm absorbing your info and sitting here thinking about this as if I was a piece of metal pipe sitting under the hood at 60 mph (bear with me guys). It seems to me (devils advocate here) that the air in the engine compartment at anything above 40 or 50 mph would be so violent from being forced in and out through every nook and cranny (just as if you stuck your hand out the window at 60 mph), that the warm air from the engine would never be stagnant enough to heat up anything that is not bolted directly to it...and even then would require sufficient surface area contact to actually be conducive to heat transfer from the engine block (now that was a long sentence ). Just a thought...here is my reasoning. I sprayed some rubberized undercoating under the truck on a few parts that were bare. One area was within 2 inches of the exhaust pipe. Knowing how hot this pipe gets, I figured the undercoating would just melt in that spot. One day, after a nice long haul, I stuck my head under the truck to inspect the spot in question. I could feel the heat radiating off the exhaust pipe while sitting still (and it was HOT), but the surface in question was as cool as it could be....that be a metal part that just spent three hours within 2 inches of an 800+ degree pipe.

Sure, the heat radiating off the engine would almost have to keep the air in the engine compartment a few degrees warmer. Since it is not sealed off to where the engine compartment air remains stagnant, do you really think the air could heat up enough to make any real difference at all?

You all make a good point, and based on that, the Scotty intake may keep EGTs 10 degrees lower than the MAC (right ball park?). But I would think the MAC is definitely going to flow more air with its smooth, much less restrictive piping to make up the difference in torque.....which is important to. Besides, The Boss Hog already convinced me with his contribution of facts...."chrome is always faster" Yes, you did say that!

What do ya think?

Scotty

?You guys really tore the MAC a new one.

My intention here was not to 'tear a new one.'

I answered some questions about the Scotty RAM AIR III.
Having said that, I have never tried a MAC product. Therefore no comments from me on that.

You all make a good point, and based on that, the Scotty intake may keep EGTs 10 degrees lower than the MAC (right ball park?).

I would like to challenge the 10*F variance in a test with the MAC though.

On a stock truck perhaps this is close. Nevertheless, a test back to back with the same truck with the same load would be interesting to all of us, correct?

Several people made statements that my system would not work and could not work the way it is designed. Those folks never tried my system and some of them that did had a hard time explaining the 150-250 EGT reduction they saw compared to what they had on their truck.

Scotty

CTDCAL

After a hard pull, go out and touch your plastic tube from the air box to the turbo and see how hot it gets. Now think about how hot it would be if it was metal! I have not experienced things being too cool under the hood but air coming through the grill sure is.

AK RAM

As a matter of fact CTDCAL, I did just that today to test my own brain storming, and your right, it had a noticeably warmer feel to it, along with many other parts under the hood not connected to the block. Scotty....I ordered the MAC, should be here any moment. X-monitor next month. Send me one of your units in the mail and I'll test that theory for ya .

....no, not really. In all seriousness though...no doubt you have an excellent product that is raved by everyone who tries it. I don't think anyone has found a bad intake yet from the many available. Just hope my luck holds up and my intake choice isn't the first. Pretty sure it will not be a Scotty though.... the wife being a Harley fan, says for that much money it had better have chrome on it somewhere . HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!! At the rate I'm going, this will be me in the morning >>>>>> ............... where did she go with my beer

doug

re: violent air under the hood at 60 mph: never made any measurements but I would suspect this would not substantially benefit the metal pipe situation and heat transfer from engine to intake air -- at least under the conditions where after market intake systems are most needed. consider that the compressor side of the turbocharger ("post turbo EGT") is at something like 1000 degrees and a few inches away you bolt up a metal intake pipe!

ak ram: [color = blue] I sprayed some rubberized undercoating under the truck on a few parts that were bare. One area was within 2 inches of the exhaust pipe. Knowing how hot this pipe gets, I figured the undercoating would just melt in that spot. One day, after a nice long haul, I stuck my head under the truck to inspect the spot in question. I could feel the heat radiating off the exhaust pipe while sitting still (and it was HOT), but the surface in question was as cool as it could be....that be a metal part that just spent three hours within 2 inches of an 800+ degree pipe. [/color]

hmm, that is interesting, to be sure. I think, however, that the airflow under the truck along the exhaust pipe is probably the most effective air cooling location on the whole truck, and monumentally more effective than the engine compartment. also consider that, under the truck, the area close to the exhaust pipe is cooled not only by direct airflow but by its contact with cooler pieces of metal in the area. you have 800 degree gasses shooting through the small exhaust pipe, but hundreds of times more volume of 70 degree air cooling a very large area around it.


ak ram: Sure, the heat radiating off the engine would almost have to keep the air in the engine compartment a few degrees warmer. Since it is not sealed off to where the engine compartment air remains stagnant, do you really think the air could heat up enough to make any real difference at all?

In my opinion, under the conditions that matter, and without taking further measurements, yes. I base that opinion on the measured and substantiated differences between the Scotty air II and the other under-hood intake systems for the 2nd gens. Note that on the dyno and under light loads, there is little if any difference between a Scotty and a mega-cannon, for example (they both suck air of similar temperature). But under heavy loads, and for fuel-enhanced, modified trucks running at highway speeds, the scotty II will give a substantial EGT reduction. Rod can give us more specifics here but I suspect a 100+ degree advantage -- scotty II over mega cannon.

The reason Scotty II yields substantially lower EGTs is very simple: it does not use under-hood air -- it uses outside air. From this I conclude that under the conditions benefitted by an upgraded intake system (high loads, fuel enhanced modified trucks driving down the highway), the use of under-hood air is a disadvantage, yielding perhaps 100+ degrees (rod please correct) higher EGTs under those conditions. From this data I conclude that the under-hood environment is not cooled by incoming air turbluance. Indeed, if it were, then the Scotty II would perform no better than the mega-cannon on the 2nd gen trucks!

ak ram: You all make a good point, and based on that, the Scotty intake may keep EGTs 10 degrees lower than the MAC (right ball park?). But I would think the MAC is definitely going to flow more air with its smooth, much less restrictive piping to make up the difference in torque.....which is important to. Besides, The Boss Hog already convinced me with his contribution of facts...."chrome is always faster" Yes, you did say that!

Well, to quantify the difference between Scotty's plastic inlet and the metal pipe in the Mac, one has to consider length too. The Mac pipe is no less restrictive than a 4" exhaust system, so clearly there is no problem there. you could argue that the 4" plastic hose on the Scotty might be slightly more turbulant, but since it is short compared to the Mac pipe, I'd say there is no measureable flow difference (the engine won't care). So I would not at all conclude that the MAC will flow more air, be only 10 degrees warmer, and produce more torque than a Scotty. I would conclude, (again without measurements to verify) that the Scotty would yield on the order of 100 degrees EGT reduction over the MAC, IF you had a modified truck under heavy load -- something like DDII's and an EZ in a hard pull. I think the metal pipe will conduct heat into the intake system and provide large amounts of warm air. I think Scotty's quasi-sealed inlets, drawing outside cool air, and use of plastic duct work, is by far the most appealing from an engineering standpoint for the purpose of reducing EGTs on modified trucks under heavy loads.

I do applaud MAC for attempting to pull air from the front of the engine, instead of the back, and for sealing the top of the filter chamber with the closed hood. unfortunately, some of the air it utilizes is already warmed by the AC radiator, the engine radiator, and the intercooler, and then it is passed through a metal pipe bolted directly to a hot turbocharger.

Doug