bdramsey

2 questions:


1)What are the warrenty implications for installing aftermarket injectors on these trucks?

2)Which aftermarket injectors are recommended?


ATS has these:

Common Rail
+95 hp Injector Package 2003-2004 CMR Injectors
$1276.00

Whaddya think?

AK RAM

Haven't seen much on the ATS injectors. Not even on their own forum. Read this: https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...threadid=44154

Mark Thomas

Who is going to be making the " EDM " injectors I have read about?

LinearX

Don M. at f1diesel makes them, but I think he's a still a few months out on production.

bhoeffner

I thought the folks at Diesel Dynamics had EDM injectors for our trucks. I was on the web site last night and saw them.

As far as warrenty it has been said many times: If you BOMB you are your own warrenty station.

KERMA

Some companies in Europe have been making common rail tips for several months now. Better to start with new tips for honing than used exchange ones.

Don M

We built the first prototypes in March 04 for the 04.5 600 truck.

From there we have built 5 others trying to tweak them in real good. Some betas are in testing now! We have 2 actual retail customers as of Monday next week.

Hopefully in a few more weeks they will be ready for everyone to have

Don~

OT-OF-Here

Do you have the hp selection and pricing worked out yet?

Don M

Soon. Maybe I will have everything a few weeks all ready.

KERMA

Some of the offerings on the market right now have new tips made in Europe by a company that's been doing it for decades. You just need to look around a little- some of the established aftermarket companies already offer injectors with these tips. They are ready right now, no need to wait.

KERMA

EDM is just a normal part of the manufacturing process for these tips. All of the modern OEM injector tips have the spray holes drilled using EDM. It was just not well known in the aftermarket until recently.

Drilling spray holes is only one part of making the nozzles/tips- there is a lot of very precise machining that takes specialized and expensive tooling to do right consistently - there are only a few companies on the planet with the correct tooling because it is very expensive. Most machine shops can't guarantee sub-micron tolerances and that is the OEM spec for these tips.

The aftermarket focuses on the spray holes, because that is the easiest variable to change and it is easy to see with the naked eye, and the flow change is evident. What is not evident are the things that matter for longevity and performance under real-world conditions, and those are not talked about.

Don M

NO companies offer a new and unique nozzle for the Common Rail Cummins. We are the only company and certainly the only one that has proven it with months of road and dyno testing.

European Diesels got the technology of Common Rail first. We are just about caught up to them and even passing them up with many of the newest Common Rail systems. The United States is now holding more patents on the newest Common Rail, digital valve, and piezo injection systems than ever before.

Injector manufacturing is but one part of the puzzle. Manufacturers only follow specifications layed out by the engineering designers. I do not know of any of the little tiny European nozzle manufacturers that actually design the fuel systems or make critical design changes. This is rightfully left up to the engineers of the fuel delivery systems. These little manufactuers typically take a design that was already in production and copy it. That may be fine and dandy, but it certainly places them in a position to never worry about R&D cost when they copy an OEM part. They simply analyze the part and make one just like it. Reverse engineer, so to speak.

We started from the bottom. We designed a set of nozzles for the engine, made the prototypes, and began the testing of them.
Its no secret we use extensive computational fluid dynamics, CAD/CAM and have even written some recent numerical computations that agree quite well with the computer models.

This is a part of what keeps us unique from everyone else. Where many will just take a stock part and have a manufacturer make them something with larger holes or a higher number of holes we design a complete part. We test those parts long before we release them. There is no magic and no real talent in taking a stock nozzle, making a copy of it with larger holes and selling it.

Yes, EDM is one way of forming spray holes. Not all methods are the same and not all methods can do the same things. EDM is a general term. Not all EDM is created equal. Not all injectors and their nozzles are created equal either.

None of the European EDM equipment can at this time perform the same type/style of drilling we can/do. We tweaked the power supplies, the electrode style, etc to get an outcome like no other.

Don~

KERMA

Not that you are aware of, and none that offer anything directly to the retail market. But there is at least ONE company making a unique design- it is being quietly marketed to some of the aftermarket vendors for resale. We will start to see more and more vendors offering common rail injectors, of VERY high quality.

Who is "we", do you actually have the equipment you mention? Like I said, the equipment is very expensive if you want to make these things right. Not hundreds of thousands, millions. One heck of an investment for a guy wanting to make a few nozzles.

Didn't you say (in a prior thread) that with EDM you are limited to a few thousanths in minimum hole size? Other manufacturers have overcome that limitation long ago. It is passe, old news. When you can do hundreths of a micron tolerances and do it consistently, then maybe you have something. Right now it sounds like smoke and mirrors.

Don't you use European EDM equipment? You mentioned elsewhere that your drilling machine is Swiss made.

Last I checked, Bosch is a European company, and they supply the common rail systems for all the ford, dodge, and chevy diesel pickup trucks over here. We are not taking about vaporware futuretech motors that have nothing to do with anything available for us right now, we are discussing what people drive, I thought, maybe I am wrong. Are you offering a digital valve piezo actuated injection system for the Dodge? Cool!! Count me in!

That's because CFD, CAD/CAM, and the other-multi-syllable-words are not "secrets."

What are you saying, exactly, that no one else in the industry uses these tools? Is CAD/CAM a new innovation in manufacturing? I guess no one else can do "numerical computations" or "computer modeling" either.

Oh, you didn't examine the original pieces before you decided to make your own? How did you know what spray angle to use, or what flow, what alloys? I suspect you might know a little about reverse engineering, yourself. You never examined what the competition is doing?

C'mon, Don, there is no magic here. The know-how is out there, people were making injectors in the OEM and aftermarket long before DonM came along on the forums. Some of them are actually pretty good.

Wasn't there some discussion about you making some 12v injectors that would be the end-all?

Don M

Kerma,

What we do is far cry from what any of the other injector nozzle manufacturers are doing. Like I said, we have our own design. We dont take a stock nozzle and simply have a foreign manufacturer build something with larger or a higher number of holes.

Yes, we can build the entire prototype nozzles right here. Yes, I own the EDM machine. Well I owe a few thousand bucks on it, but its over 96% paid for. "We" is F1 Diesel. A real company.

Unlike yourself, we are an actual company. I dont have a day job like you and a side business selling injector nozzles on the weekends and after hours.

I stated that the hole size was limited to a size of .0045. Not that the tolerance we had was that large. I can tweak microns in hole sizes.

Why is it do you think we can make 5 HP changes in any of our injectors? We can tweak tolerance like no other commercially available machine. We changed the power supplies on the microfin side of the machine to make changes far outside the equipment available to you or anyone.

I did see the photographs of the small Italian manufacturer you use for your nozzles. The EDM machine they use a fast production hole popper and intended for mass production. Its not bad but certainly not as refined as it could be. I also noticed they use a batch heat treat process. They throw eveything in a basket piled up together. Our nozzles are placed on racks individually and heat treated to perfection. No hot or cold zones. IMO, batch heat treating is better used for mass production and less critical part making.

Don~

KERMA

What makes an "actual" company? How do you know it's just me, (it's not) and why does it matter? You must consider me a threat because I ask the questions you don't want to hear, so you pick a perceived weakness as an opportunity to take a cheap shot.

What about you, how long have you been an "expert" nozzle maker, a year or so? What did you do before that, maybe sell medical supplies? It's quite a stretch from that to "designing" injectors, cams, heads, and whatever else you're pushing now. Either someone else is doing it for you, and you are the mouthpiece, or you reverse engineer other people's stuff and sell it as your own. How much computer modeling does it take to sell medical supplies? Selling is selling, and that's what you're still doing. Maybe the product is good, who cares about the voice.

I'll admit I am a mouthpiece, but I know where to go to get the good stuff, and just happen to have a buddy with a factory whose family has been doing nothing but making diesel injection nozzles for nearly 80 years. THey know what they're doing. You are guessing. I know a little about these things, but there are people a lot smarter than me out there, it's just a matter of everyone helping each other out for the benefit of all. And I am not selling anything here on these forums, I do mainly VW stuff. I just find some of your claims interesting, so I ask questions.

You've seen pics of (some of) the (Italian) factory. OK. OF course you haven't seen everything, you saw pictures of some old-school nozzles being heat treated, they are for older 150 bar injection systems so they aren't as critical as 28,000 psi common rail nozzles. Let's see the pictures of your facility, better yet, how about some of the prototype CR nozzles, too.

Or you can keep blowing smoke and mirrors. You can make any claim you want, where are the 12v injectors that were gonna wipe up everything?

1000 microns is 40 thousanths. 4.5 thousanths, that's 112 microns. That is a mighty big hole for some of the newer high pressure applications. If that is the lower limit of your drilling capability, what tolerance can you get (consistently) as a fracton of that. Drillling the spray holes is only a very small part of the big picture, but like I said before, it is the focus of the aftermarket companies because it is evident and easy to show the difference in flow.