6.7 vs. 5.9
12-04-2007, 12:23 PM
#46
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05.5 to 07 5.9's are rated at 325HP and 610TQ
04.5 to 05 5.9's are rated at 325HP and 600TQ
03 to 04 5.9's are rated at 305HP and 555TQ
OH, and I drove an 07 6.7 G56, exhaust brake was cool and all but the truck just felt like a step backwards to me. And I refuse to buy an auto.
04.5 to 05 5.9's are rated at 325HP and 600TQ
03 to 04 5.9's are rated at 305HP and 555TQ
OH, and I drove an 07 6.7 G56, exhaust brake was cool and all but the truck just felt like a step backwards to me. And I refuse to buy an auto.
12-04-2007, 01:28 PM
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12-04-2007, 06:43 PM
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MtnTrucker:
After reading your post I thought I would make a few comments concerning this thread.
First off, I am glad to hear you are happy with your 6.7! Each Member here has to come to the decision on their own concerning the all the new diesel trucks with updated "emission engines" in them.
With that being said,.......I did not see where Mark ever said in his first post that he DID NOT want to hear from any 5.9 owners concerning the 6.7 engine. I know I also commented on them after having driven a few so if my comments offended you I apologize. However, at the present time, there is NO policy whatsoever on this website that says that any Member (5.9 or 6.7 owner) can't come into a thread under ANY section and make a comment concerning what is asked in that thread. You may not agree with that, but that is the way it is. Also, your comment on "5.9 owners staying on the 5.9 forum so we can all practice patting each other on the back" IMHO was uncalled for. The way I look at it is if a prospective buyer of a new 2008 Dodge 6.7 has concerns about how the emissions engines compare to the 5.9
engine without them,.... and there HAVE been problems,... then this should be made aware to the newer Members coming aboard. As you said, this is what the DTR forum is all about, sharing of information back and forth whether it be good or bad.
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John_P
MtnTrucker:
After reading your post I thought I would make a few comments concerning this thread.
First off, I am glad to hear you are happy with your 6.7! Each Member here has to come to the decision on their own concerning the all the new diesel trucks with updated "emission engines" in them.
With that being said,.......I did not see where Mark ever said in his first post that he DID NOT want to hear from any 5.9 owners concerning the 6.7 engine. I know I also commented on them after having driven a few so if my comments offended you I apologize. However, at the present time, there is NO policy whatsoever on this website that says that any Member (5.9 or 6.7 owner) can't come into a thread under ANY section and make a comment concerning what is asked in that thread. You may not agree with that, but that is the way it is. Also, your comment on "5.9 owners staying on the 5.9 forum so we can all practice patting each other on the back" IMHO was uncalled for. The way I look at it is if a prospective buyer of a new 2008 Dodge 6.7 has concerns about how the emissions engines compare to the 5.9
engine without them,.... and there HAVE been problems,... then this should be made aware to the newer Members coming aboard. As you said, this is what the DTR forum is all about, sharing of information back and forth whether it be good or bad.
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John_P
I am also not blindly trying to defend the 6.7 just because I own one. I try to share the info I come across and learn from the information shared by others. I am not trying to manage this forum or anything else.
My only request would be for people to focus on making productive contributions to the threads and stop making the "my truck is better than your truck" comments.
12-04-2007, 07:38 PM
#49
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I look forward to taking delivery of mine in the next few weeks.
I use my truck in extreme conditions. Will post my 06' 5.9 vs 08' 6.7 experience/impressions for those who work their trucks like I do.
Eyes wide open. Good thread.
I use my truck in extreme conditions. Will post my 06' 5.9 vs 08' 6.7 experience/impressions for those who work their trucks like I do.
Eyes wide open. Good thread.
12-04-2007, 08:26 PM
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I'm posting this because I'd pe PO'd if someone I didn't know was knocking my 40K + purchase insinuating I'm an idiot for doing so. Read my sig.
Heh, I don't understand all the 6.7 bashing either... I was reading the "Never a dodge again" thread the other week that someone strangly TTT from like 3-4 years ago and some people were bashing the "new" at the time 600 cummins saying they get worse milage etc.
Anyway, that new 6 speed transmission is great and so is the exhaust break. It will only be a matter of time before people figure around these DPF.
Some people just want to bash the latest thing on the lot, kinda like 12valve guys
. Granted, 12 valves are grail trucks and I think mine might be.... But that doesn't make the new one suck or make it a bad purchase. If I was going to keep my truck stock I'd be in a 6.7.
Heh, I don't understand all the 6.7 bashing either... I was reading the "Never a dodge again" thread the other week that someone strangly TTT from like 3-4 years ago and some people were bashing the "new" at the time 600 cummins saying they get worse milage etc.
Anyway, that new 6 speed transmission is great and so is the exhaust break. It will only be a matter of time before people figure around these DPF.
Some people just want to bash the latest thing on the lot, kinda like 12valve guys
. Granted, 12 valves are grail trucks and I think mine might be.... But that doesn't make the new one suck or make it a bad purchase. If I was going to keep my truck stock I'd be in a 6.7.
12-04-2007, 08:38 PM
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Also, forgot one thing. In 2010, the already compliant 6.7 will be the truck you'll be running for on the dealers lots while Ford and GM are still trying to figure it out again.
12-04-2007, 08:42 PM
#52
Some people just want to bash the latest thing on the lot, kinda like 12valve guys
. Granted, 12 valves are grail trucks and I think mine might be.... But that doesn't make the new one suck or make it a bad purchase. If I was going to keep my truck stock I'd be in a 6.7.Good post.
People will come around to embrace the 6.7 just as they did the 24 valves, just as they did the new front ends, and so on and so on.
Likewise, the DC will get all (most) of the bugs worked out in time.
12-04-2007, 09:43 PM
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Well personally I have blown up one motor in a 05 and I don't think it was really being an idiot as I had a bad tank of fuel and wiped out all 6 of my injectors without me knowing. I really don't see how you take virtually the same block and get the more displacement out of them they are gonna weaken somewhere maybe not though. I've drove a 07 6.7 auto and it was pretty quick but not my cup of tea I like to shift. Most of us know that the cummins motor got popular becasue of it's longivity (new word?), horsepower, and the number 1 thing that I thing made them famous is horsepower. The first time I seen one of those show me smoker pull was when I was 17 and new I had to have one so at 18 I got one and now I finally have my sled puller with a new motor and turned up. Ford never did really come up with any high hp diesels and chevy has finally got into the seen almost everybody you know whatever they drive a ford or chevy will say a cummins is a good motor. Now most people don't have over 50,000 miles on these 6.7's and I haven't seen any turning over 600-700hp defiantly haven't seen one in the 1000hp range so we really will have to wait and see what they are capapble of and if they can stay together but as of right now when I turn my truck into a full blown pulling truck I am not buying a 6.7.
12-04-2007, 10:10 PM
#54
Hey guys - new to the forums, but not to diesels...guess I'll throw my $.02 into the pot -->
I did ALOT of research, ALOT of test drives in both the 2007 5.9L and the 2007.5 6.7L.
I just 2 months ago went out and specifically bought a left over, new 2007 5.9L for several reasons.
1. aftermarket - the 5.9 has been around forever, parts are everywhere, and fun stuff for them is everywhere
2. less complicated - I pulled 2 identical trucks side by side and popped the hoods the day I bought the 5.9L. The engine compartment on the 6.7 is absolutely PACKED with extra sensors, the new EGR system, and bunches of emissions crap. The exhaust from the turbo back is equally as complicated - multiple pressure sensors, temperature sensors, oxygen sensors...
A few more examples of complication:
--the new variable geometry turbo - great idea, but if you like to mod, think about how to install an aftermarket turbo when the ECU in the truck on the 6.7 CONTROLS the turbo. That hitch will be tough to overcome. I know that the 5.9 late models have an electronic wastegate, but that is a much simpler mechanism - the computer tells it to open when boost hits a certain point. Period. The variable geom turbo, from what I've read, needs input from 8 different sensors just to operate correctly. I doubt, for example, Aurora is going to make a var geom aftermarket turbo that talks to your Dodge ECU to work properly.
--the DPF (particulate filter) in the exhaust - I know...they are all going to it, but IMO, the system is so complicated, and is already failing so early, that it's kinda scary. The backpressure is 3 TIMES what it is on a stock 5.9L, and that's when the DPF is working well and is empty!
OK, I'll stop ranting.
All 3 companies are having to make diesels this way now. The V-8 diesels are even more unbearable in the engine compartment. I'm sure they will work fine eventually, but if you like to mod or customize engine-wise, I think the 6.7 is going to just be a headache. My advice - get a left-over new 5.9L before they're gone and treasure it!!
I did ALOT of research, ALOT of test drives in both the 2007 5.9L and the 2007.5 6.7L.
I just 2 months ago went out and specifically bought a left over, new 2007 5.9L for several reasons.
1. aftermarket - the 5.9 has been around forever, parts are everywhere, and fun stuff for them is everywhere
2. less complicated - I pulled 2 identical trucks side by side and popped the hoods the day I bought the 5.9L. The engine compartment on the 6.7 is absolutely PACKED with extra sensors, the new EGR system, and bunches of emissions crap. The exhaust from the turbo back is equally as complicated - multiple pressure sensors, temperature sensors, oxygen sensors...
A few more examples of complication:
--the new variable geometry turbo - great idea, but if you like to mod, think about how to install an aftermarket turbo when the ECU in the truck on the 6.7 CONTROLS the turbo. That hitch will be tough to overcome. I know that the 5.9 late models have an electronic wastegate, but that is a much simpler mechanism - the computer tells it to open when boost hits a certain point. Period. The variable geom turbo, from what I've read, needs input from 8 different sensors just to operate correctly. I doubt, for example, Aurora is going to make a var geom aftermarket turbo that talks to your Dodge ECU to work properly.
--the DPF (particulate filter) in the exhaust - I know...they are all going to it, but IMO, the system is so complicated, and is already failing so early, that it's kinda scary. The backpressure is 3 TIMES what it is on a stock 5.9L, and that's when the DPF is working well and is empty!
OK, I'll stop ranting.
All 3 companies are having to make diesels this way now. The V-8 diesels are even more unbearable in the engine compartment. I'm sure they will work fine eventually, but if you like to mod or customize engine-wise, I think the 6.7 is going to just be a headache. My advice - get a left-over new 5.9L before they're gone and treasure it!!
12-04-2007, 10:27 PM
#55
As far as the technology, I remember when the muscle car era "died" in the mid 70's due to catalytic convertors, unleaded gas, air pumps. For a few years things were bad. Then the cars started running fine and the OEM's eventually figured out how to make HP and still meet emissions. Every one of them today makes a performance rig that will blow the doors off of the fastest 60's or 70's muscle cars to come off the show room floor, and they get much better mileage and meet all emission standards.
I'm not exaggerating. For the majority of the years in between, too, you were lucky to get 150HP. My point: the 6.7 will likely be a fine motor. I just have a gut feeling that the complexity of the emissions systems, variable geom turbo, and several other changes will likely make it NOT the ideal platform for people to tinker with, modify on the weekend, and still be able to drive to work reliably, like the 5.9L has been. There's just too much crap to have to work around for the average gearhead with limited time and resources. A few will do it, but it won't be a simple task.
12-04-2007, 10:34 PM
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I'm glad I have my 5.9 for simplicity.. But I'm sure that 6.7 will have lots of aftermarket parts on the market within a few years.
I'm not going to discount it because of electronics or variable geometry turbo.
I'm sure the hardcore modders will be able to work around the DPF.
I'm not going to discount it because of electronics or variable geometry turbo.
I'm sure the hardcore modders will be able to work around the DPF.
12-04-2007, 10:55 PM
#57
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I'm glad I have my 5.9 for simplicity.. But I'm sure that 6.7 will have lots of aftermarket parts on the market within a few years.
I'm not going to discount it because of electronics or variable geometry turbo.
I'm sure the hardcore modders will be able to work around the DPF.
I'm not going to discount it because of electronics or variable geometry turbo.
I'm sure the hardcore modders will be able to work around the DPF.
No need to work around the dpf. Problems already been solved. HSPERFORMANCE
Problem is the regen. But that wont be a problem anymore either.
SMARTY/QUAD TO FOLLOW PROBABLY
Yes it have a VGT, but guess what, ITS BIGGER THEN YOURS!!!!!
ALL and ALL, bigger displacement, bigger turbo, independant injection, STRONG AUTOMATIC, how can you go wrong. Check out kmk's numbers, he barely has anything done to his ride and its got amazing numbers!!!!! Give it another year and these trucks wont take much to reach 1000hp
12-05-2007, 05:55 AM
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Good point, but one thing to note: When the Chevy Camaro in 1973 was derated to 245HP with its HOTTEST motor (and 155HP in 1975), it took 20 YEARS just to get back to 245HP! I'm not exaggerating. For the majority of the years in between, too, you were lucky to get 150HP.
My point: the 6.7 will likely be a fine motor. I just have a gut feeling that the complexity of the emissions systems, variable geom turbo, and several other changes will likely make it NOT the ideal platform for people to tinker with, modify on the weekend, and still be able to drive to work reliably, like the 5.9L has been. There's just too much crap to have to work around for the average gearhead with limited time and resources. A few will do it, but it won't be a simple task.
I'm not exaggerating. For the majority of the years in between, too, you were lucky to get 150HP. My point: the 6.7 will likely be a fine motor. I just have a gut feeling that the complexity of the emissions systems, variable geom turbo, and several other changes will likely make it NOT the ideal platform for people to tinker with, modify on the weekend, and still be able to drive to work reliably, like the 5.9L has been. There's just too much crap to have to work around for the average gearhead with limited time and resources. A few will do it, but it won't be a simple task.
. I think yuor analogy is good, but don't think that it will take 20 years to get back to the pre-2007 diesel performance days.
12-05-2007, 08:29 AM
#59
Top's Younger Twin
Technology moves way faster then back in the 70's.
If anyone missed this...http://wiki.dieseltruckresource.com/wiki/6.7_Changes
that does give a good write up. Since Dodge canned my warranty for exporting the truck to Canada, I am going to attempt to do everything I can to learn and maximize the value of this truck. This includes fuel mileage, performance and longevity. Whether I had a warranty or not I would still be pursuing what is best for me. I've owned VE trucks, P7100 trucks, VP-44 trucks and now CP3 trucks.
No concern here with regards to what the aftermarket can provide.
My last 5.9 which I still have has ran flawlessly for 138K and its an 07. Other then the codes [scares] generated because the left hand and right hand in the ECM cannot 'rathionalize' that the readings are only slightly off and the poorer fuel mileage, this 6.7 runs out real nice. It just needs to be tweaked. Thats my personal take, others may disagree or they may go crazier then me. Since I am my own warranty station and have had that belief with every truck...its time to BOMB!
Environment Canada is unable to answer my question about the emissions items on this truck. A simple question was put to them; "Since this new truck complies with 2010 emissions, is it illegal for me to alter them before that year?" Reply; "We've never had that question." The aftermarket folks must be drooling and gearing up for this round.
Scotty
If anyone missed this...http://wiki.dieseltruckresource.com/wiki/6.7_Changes
that does give a good write up. Since Dodge canned my warranty for exporting the truck to Canada, I am going to attempt to do everything I can to learn and maximize the value of this truck. This includes fuel mileage, performance and longevity. Whether I had a warranty or not I would still be pursuing what is best for me. I've owned VE trucks, P7100 trucks, VP-44 trucks and now CP3 trucks.
No concern here with regards to what the aftermarket can provide.
My last 5.9 which I still have has ran flawlessly for 138K and its an 07. Other then the codes [scares] generated because the left hand and right hand in the ECM cannot 'rathionalize' that the readings are only slightly off and the poorer fuel mileage, this 6.7 runs out real nice. It just needs to be tweaked. Thats my personal take, others may disagree or they may go crazier then me. Since I am my own warranty station and have had that belief with every truck...its time to BOMB!
Environment Canada is unable to answer my question about the emissions items on this truck. A simple question was put to them; "Since this new truck complies with 2010 emissions, is it illegal for me to alter them before that year?" Reply; "We've never had that question." The aftermarket folks must be drooling and gearing up for this round.
Scotty
12-05-2007, 09:46 AM
#60
I do agree with you guys for the most part. I'm sure the 6.7 will have an aftermarket, but I guess I just see the emissions stuff, the more complex turbo, etc, as just more difficult to work around. Not to mention, the one thing I've loved about the 5.9 is the ability to REACH almost anything you need to in the engine bay. It honestly is tough to reach down the sides of the motor in the 6.7 -- I tried! (But the new Ford motor/engine bay is INSANELY packed.)
Just seems like the aftermarket for the 6.7 is going to rely on 'fooling' sensors. (...and I know that the 5.9 crowd has to fool the boost sensor, but that's about it) You have to fool the pressure sensors in front of and behind the DPF, fool the temperature sensors at the DPF, fool the variable geom turbo sensors, fool 4 (I believe that's the right number) oxygen sensors...the list goes on. I prefer the simple power-adding techniques with the 5.9 --> more air + more fuel. Most of the mods are intuitive and simple.
I do agree that the new auto is NICE. If I could have gotten it behind a 5.9, I might have gone that way!
Anyways, I would never bash anyone with a 6.7, or sit here and preach that "I'm gonna smoke your 6.7...", just thought I'd point out why I liked the 5.9 better. Either way, the Dodge is the right choice...
Just seems like the aftermarket for the 6.7 is going to rely on 'fooling' sensors. (...and I know that the 5.9 crowd has to fool the boost sensor, but that's about it) You have to fool the pressure sensors in front of and behind the DPF, fool the temperature sensors at the DPF, fool the variable geom turbo sensors, fool 4 (I believe that's the right number) oxygen sensors...the list goes on. I prefer the simple power-adding techniques with the 5.9 --> more air + more fuel. Most of the mods are intuitive and simple.
I do agree that the new auto is NICE. If I could have gotten it behind a 5.9, I might have gone that way!
Anyways, I would never bash anyone with a 6.7, or sit here and preach that "I'm gonna smoke your 6.7...", just thought I'd point out why I liked the 5.9 better. Either way, the Dodge is the right choice...