re: new federal emissions on the 04.5. absolutely right, Jack, Big Bob, and others. the single most important reason why some of us hurried to grab the early 04s was to avoid the new regulations. Sure, the fear of EGR was in there but the real reason was that our "03 standards" 04 trucks won't have nearly the big brother eyes on them. Those of us who bought HOs in the legal states -- I'm hoping that we can legally (or at least more easily) bomb to levels higher than the 04.5 is now (meaning, moderate fueling enhancement to acheive 350-400 HP) and still be perfectly street legal. This will probably depend on local inspections -- but the important thing is that our trucks are subject to the 2003 regs, and not the 2004 regs.

 

I think that if the 04.5 comes with a EGR (which I doubt) or a Cat or special exhaust system (which I think it will have) you will not be able to legally modify them.

 

Big Bob, I'm With you I was at first disappointed :'(that I no longer would have the big boy on the block. After talking to my local dealer of tcd the limitations for any modifications will be hard to come by(cracking the ecm will be costly and will any company do it knowing the are providing a very expensive item with little purchase appeal). Look at the time for the new boxes for the 04 to come out. Is the last of the EZ & TST on the horizion? We will have to wait & see this may all be just hype. The only changes my only be a new computer flash or a manifold mod for better breathing. Time will tell & we pre 600's may have the oppertunity to be the last of the great BOMB'ers. It is so easy to produce 20 more hp with little money,the future looks so bright I gotta wear shades..... Thanks Big Bob

 

Someone please tell me what month 2004.5 starts.
Many thanks!

 

I've heard all this "gotta get that new ride before the new smog rules go into effect" before........

It was called OBDII.

Everybody was talking about how the "new" rules would make modifying engines impossible.

Yet, today I drive around and see many modified OBDII vehicles out on the road....

I wouldn't sweat too much over being able to find some good go-fast parts for the 600, with the Ram being the second best selling truck and a decent percentage of those being diesel, there shouldn't be too long of a wait for parts on it.

 

BINGO! - DanStewart. You nailed it.

We've heard those stories before: "The sky is falling; we'll never be able to soup them up again like we did in the old days; its all computers now - you can't touch them anymore; hot rodding is doomed" etc. I remember them.

Guess what, this is better than the old days!

 

Promo #'s are promo numbers.

Now details let us know how much and what has changed.

Like premium exhuast valves. Probably sodium filled. Maybe even hollow stem intake valves. This has been the trend for some time now with all "flagship" engines. Vette, EVO, WRX-STI, countless others and yes high end commercial diesels. A 100 degree drop in exhaust valve temp is'nt just for gear heads.

Now EGR. Just maintain.. Clean it often. I'd do something like every other OC depending on driving habits.

Is it VGT? My guess is yes and it explains the shape of the new power band.

The problem of a Mercedes transmission is likely mating it to a light truck tcase.

Another issue yet is just how they come by the 550 ft/lb rating for the nv5600. Is it the max input tq when in the weakest gear? If so there are ways around that much like what is done on auto trans trucks. ECU meters out the power each gear can take. It is possible but I don't think they went to the trouble to come up with sensors to monitor which gear the transmission was in. Unless reverse was the weak gear and they could just read the rev light switch.

Another option again is that muncie made them some special nv5600's... Research jeep 5600 swaps for rock crawling. There are some different variations of this transmission. Not all of which have synchros in every gear or the same ratios. Maybe differently manufactured gears go in the 2004.5
version of the nv5600 that DC gets.

Look at it from the trans suppliers POV.

The 2nd best selling pu and most likely the best HD diesel pu mfg already buys alot of what they make. They get the call and they say we need to squeeze another 50ft/lbs thru these things can you make the ones you send us handle it. They would do it for someone who buys that many. Also any advances gained via meeting this requirement can be used on any nv5600 at a later date so we are'nt just going back to R&D just for dodges sake as we can also make money selling what we learn/change to other customers.

Look at what fails first, how, why, where, what etc. Then engineer the failure point out of it.

As for EPA... If you are doing it right there will be no increase in polution. If you are'nt and you say crank up a fueling box w/o increasing airflow. Yes it will increase.

So IMHO. No gearbox change. Main changes are EGR and VGT and nicer valves. Of couses ECU programing differences too but the gains come from the parts themselves the programing just makes the most of them.

 

It will probably be a blend between this

http://www.cummins.com/na/pdf/en/pro..._specsheet.pdf

And the current HO they produce for dodge.

Now look at that dyno chart for tq. That thing is about as flat as it gets untill it drops off at around 2700 rpm.

Most ISB options and variants.

http://www.cummins.com/na/pdf/en/products/rv/ISB02.pdf



Notice the 660ft/lb model It has a gov at 2600 rpm. The 600ft/lb is governed at 2800 rpm.

The "600" peak hp is at 2900 rpm. I think they just bumped the rev limit on the 600ft/lb 2800 rpm govererned version and did some ecu magic... maybe a little camshaft tinkering but not necessary to sneek out another 25hp at a slightly higher rpm.




http://prn.newscom.com/cgi-bin/pub/s?f=PRN/prnpub&p1=20031203-DEW013&xtag=PRN-prnphotos-36018&redir=preview&tr=1&row=1

 

[quote author=MNISB link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222486 date=1071210291]
Now look at that dyno chart for tq. That thing is about as flat as it gets untill it drops off at around 2700 rpm.[/quote]Flat? Its perfect! Not that I build engines for a living, but I've seen many dyno printouts showing rear wheel hp&tq, and I've never seen a real world straight line like that. And EXACTLY on the 600 line, not a hair above/below or otherwise. I've seen plateaus, but nothing perfectly straight like that. The engineer in me says it isn't possible. You don't even need to use a differential equation to model it: mx+b is perfect. Looks like someone picked two points and connected them with a straight edge. I don't even think our gas turbines had a curve that nice.

 

[quote author=MNISB link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222476 date=1071207152]
It is possible but I don't think they went to the trouble to come up with sensors to monitor which gear the transmission was in. Unless reverse was the weak gear and they could just read the rev light switch.[/quote]

No real need to use sensors anyway. It is possible to use vehicle speed and engine speed to determine which gear is being used. This is how most of the newer vehicle computers determine which gear you are in (ie corvette/camaro/firebird use this method to determine if the second gear lockout needs to be engaged or not, aka skipshift solenoid...forces you to shift from 1st to 4th under light throttle). And this method has been used since around 1991, so it has been proven to be a reliable means. I wouldn't be suprised if the computer doesn't already monitor which gear you are in on the newer diesels. Maybe some of the CAN gurus out there can verify if this is already so or not.

 

[quote author=bulabula link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222543 date=1071236310]
[quote author=MNISB link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222486 date=1071210291]
Now look at that dyno chart for tq. That thing is about as flat as it gets untill it drops off at around 2700 rpm.[/quote]Flat? Its perfect! Not that I build engines for a living, but I've seen many dyno printouts showing rear wheel hp&tq, and I've never seen a real world straight line like that. And EXACTLY on the 600 line, not a hair above/below or otherwise. I've seen plateaus, but nothing perfectly straight like that. The engineer in me says it isn't possible. You don't even need to use a differential equation to model it: mx+b is perfect. Looks like someone picked two points and connected them with a straight edge. I don't even think our gas turbines had a curve that nice.
[/quote]

That is a promo sheet graph not necessarily a dyno. My guess is the dyno is very very flat as dynos go. It will have waves and fluctuations. I'm pretty sure that the dyno's margin for error and its graphs from calibration equipment are'nt even flat lines. Maybe if you did a little averaging or did an RMS plot or something. I mean really who cares if it is 597 ft/lbs then 100rpms later 601 then back to 598 or something another 100 rpm later. The flat nature of the powerband just tells me that the ECU is sand baging likely to protect transmissions and to smooth the powerband. Notice 600 and 660 ft/lb versions of the ISB so it is artificially flat if you will courtesy of ECU programming.

 

[quote author=Jack Thorpe link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222612 date=1071242897] .



No Egr for 2004.5

No VGT for 2004.5

It's not the same nv5600 we have in our trucks currently. The press release has stated that it's been changed.

[/quote]

No EGR... Indiferent

No VGT... shoot!

Internal trans upgrades.. I figured.


Edited by Moderator

 

[quote author=DanStewart link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222678 date=1071250689]
[quote author=MNISB link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=60#msg222476 date=1071207152]
It is possible but I don't think they went to the trouble to come up with sensors to monitor which gear the transmission was in. Unless reverse was the weak gear and they could just read the rev light switch.[/quote]

No real need to use sensors anyway. It is possible to use vehicle speed and engine speed to determine which gear is being used. This is how most of the newer vehicle computers determine which gear you are in (ie corvette/camaro/firebird use this method to determine if the second gear lockout needs to be engaged or not, aka skipshift solenoid...forces you to shift from 1st to 4th under light throttle). And this method has been used since around 1991, so it has been proven to be a reliable means. I wouldn't be suprised if the computer doesn't already monitor which gear you are in on the newer diesels. Maybe some of the CAN gurus out there can verify if this is already so or not.
[/quote]

I think the skip shift may be even simpler than that and based on only engine load and shifter mechanics. I could be wrong.

The problems with calculating what gear is being used as opposed to sensing it are many. Things like clutch slipage can effect the spedo as compared to the tach. I can think of many other advantages as well. It simplifies programing and frees up processing power. Less calculations just look at what gear it is in as opposed to calculating what gear it is in then if you are smart you monitor both vehicle speed sensor (tailshaft) and wheel speed sensors and make the fueling decisions. It's alot nicer to the trans to ease off when your spinning tires because if somebody is on the skiny pedal and goes from Ice to black top or a series of such traction changes bad things can happen to transmissions.

It may even increase the "rating" of the transmission as some of the abuse that the strength saftey margin was set for at the drawing board is reduced.

All the OTR and RV wrenches I know swear by the cummins plants as delivered by cummins. I do construction equip and pwr gen. Like when cummins designs an engine to sell it as a unit for a certain purpose. IE Get the right one for the job and you will grin. IMHO DC should have just bought the 600 ft/lb ISB with VGT opened the crate and dropped it in. Then they would be ahead of the game in respect to EPA and competitors. Think about it. Beef the trany or switch it again and pretty much just reflash and they are at 660ft/lbs should navistar.. I mean ford or isuzu..I mean chevy catch up or claim to meet 600ft lbs.

 

I am currantly in Vegas at the NFR and got chance to chat with the Cummins guys. The 600 will have a cat, no egr, and new turbo. A little complicated for me 'splain here. He said there should be lit. out next week. Thought I would pass it on.