New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12-04-2003, 09:27 AM
#31
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT? How do they do that? How can they have 310 HP in one gear and 300 in another? Sounds more like their old 4-6-8 cylinder engines - - a disaster.
Nothing like that. Remember that the Duramax uses electronic "throttle", so the pedal is just a request to the ECU for power. The ECU actually dials out the power by varying fuel and fuel timing. On the gassers it also has control over the throttle plate.
GM's "torque management" isn't anything new. I know the big-block suburban has it, and it was hinted that the other trucks might have it as well. The idea being to help the whole drivetrain last longer by managing the torque placed upon it in the low gear and high gear.
This "Drive-by-wire" throttle is a pretty well proven technology.
Nothing like that. Remember that the Duramax uses electronic "throttle", so the pedal is just a request to the ECU for power. The ECU actually dials out the power by varying fuel and fuel timing. On the gassers it also has control over the throttle plate.
GM's "torque management" isn't anything new. I know the big-block suburban has it, and it was hinted that the other trucks might have it as well. The idea being to help the whole drivetrain last longer by managing the torque placed upon it in the low gear and high gear.
This "Drive-by-wire" throttle is a pretty well proven technology.
12-05-2003, 11:07 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Had an interesting conversation with Cummins (the number that Dodge gives out). The guy I spoke with appeared very knowledgable and interested, and he offered what he thought was happening in the new engines, but cautioned that the real answers are proprietary and may not ever be publicized. So he was just speculating with me.
Anyway, he's not allowed to tell, but he thinks that the new engines:
* have no EGR. This is being tested in Europe now but that doesn't mean this technology will be used in the U.S. or that this is a long term strategy for the B engine.
* have no post-combustion treetment. Fleetguard products are out there but he didn't think they were using them in the new engines. Not even a CAT.
* have no variable geometry turbo. The primary reason for VGT is to support EGR with backpressure -- to force exhaust gas recirculation. So no EGR means no VGT.
* acheive NOx reductions with pure combustion timing and duration changes.
* have no pressure changes to the common rail. he cautioned that the common rail high pressure pump doesn't really have enough margin in it to reliably boost pressure above todays figure. TST agrees.
wow. What's fascinating to me is that acheiving NOx reductions, in his opinion, were accomplished 100% by changing the combustion event. All software changes and injector control. by reducing the burn time -- a larger pulse later, if you will, NOx is reduced. But he stopped short of proclaiming how it is really done because that is prioprietary. He just suggested that if we looked at one of the new engines we would find no visible differences compared to today's engines, both under the hood and under the truck!
So how's that for more speculation! wow, not even so much as a CAT, no EGR, no VGT -- just different combustion and a more HP! It will be interesting to find out if all of this is actually true. I wonder what fuel economy will do...
The 2004.5 trucks should be very nice. and touche to Ford and others still dependant on EGR to meet federal regs (does Chevy use EGR?). good going, Cummins. The only thing is, the trucks are still subject to the new regs, newer, tighter, local inspections, etc.
Oh, and one more thing: no changes to the engine itself in terms of internal parts. Again, no engine re-design required to win in the HP race. All they had to do is tune up the electronics. See, there's HP margin in that block after all.
Anyway, he's not allowed to tell, but he thinks that the new engines:
* have no EGR. This is being tested in Europe now but that doesn't mean this technology will be used in the U.S. or that this is a long term strategy for the B engine.
* have no post-combustion treetment. Fleetguard products are out there but he didn't think they were using them in the new engines. Not even a CAT.
* have no variable geometry turbo. The primary reason for VGT is to support EGR with backpressure -- to force exhaust gas recirculation. So no EGR means no VGT.
* acheive NOx reductions with pure combustion timing and duration changes.
* have no pressure changes to the common rail. he cautioned that the common rail high pressure pump doesn't really have enough margin in it to reliably boost pressure above todays figure. TST agrees.
wow. What's fascinating to me is that acheiving NOx reductions, in his opinion, were accomplished 100% by changing the combustion event. All software changes and injector control. by reducing the burn time -- a larger pulse later, if you will, NOx is reduced. But he stopped short of proclaiming how it is really done because that is prioprietary. He just suggested that if we looked at one of the new engines we would find no visible differences compared to today's engines, both under the hood and under the truck!
So how's that for more speculation! wow, not even so much as a CAT, no EGR, no VGT -- just different combustion and a more HP! It will be interesting to find out if all of this is actually true. I wonder what fuel economy will do...
The 2004.5 trucks should be very nice. and touche to Ford and others still dependant on EGR to meet federal regs (does Chevy use EGR?). good going, Cummins. The only thing is, the trucks are still subject to the new regs, newer, tighter, local inspections, etc.
Oh, and one more thing: no changes to the engine itself in terms of internal parts. Again, no engine re-design required to win in the HP race. All they had to do is tune up the electronics. See, there's HP margin in that block after all.
12-05-2003, 11:10 AM
#33
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If what he says is true about not changing any parts on the engine, and that all of this is software, I wonder if this program would be available to use '03 and early '04 owners. Something interesting to check on later down the road when the new truck is out.
12-05-2003, 11:36 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yea interesting! What we dont' know is whether or not the new engines have a different injector. If they achieve lower NOx with a larger, shorter, fuel charge timed later, then they might be using a larger injector.
Even if it is 100% software, one wonders why DC would support such a change. they have every motivation not to allow it:
1. It discourages 03 owners from buying 04.5 trucks
2. It increases their warranty exposure
but I agree, if this is just an ECM flash, maybe some EPA related incentive will pave the way! This will be interesting to watch -- especially the fuel economy of the new engines. Power and economy wise it will be interesting to see which is better: (a) the new software or (b) a fueling box on the old software.
Even if it is 100% software, one wonders why DC would support such a change. they have every motivation not to allow it:
1. It discourages 03 owners from buying 04.5 trucks
2. It increases their warranty exposure
but I agree, if this is just an ECM flash, maybe some EPA related incentive will pave the way! This will be interesting to watch -- especially the fuel economy of the new engines. Power and economy wise it will be interesting to see which is better: (a) the new software or (b) a fueling box on the old software.
12-06-2003, 04:35 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The New Venture page still lists the max input torque of the 6 shooter at 550 lbs of torque.
The 600 number appears to be a warranty buster right there. How is DC going to reconcile that difference? Or is NV going to magically improve the design to carry the extra power? I don't know what the #'s are for the 48RE, but would think its in the same predicament.
Lots of speculation going on, but the bottom line will have to come out of DC Corporate, not Cummins or any other aftermarket supplier that has "insider" knowledge.
The 600 number appears to be a warranty buster right there. How is DC going to reconcile that difference? Or is NV going to magically improve the design to carry the extra power? I don't know what the #'s are for the 48RE, but would think its in the same predicament.
Lots of speculation going on, but the bottom line will have to come out of DC Corporate, not Cummins or any other aftermarket supplier that has "insider" knowledge.
12-06-2003, 11:22 PM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it is just a programming change. An update would be possible for the '04s but not the '03s. Why do I say this? Remeber that they switched ECMs from '03 to '04. The '04 ECM not only controls the motor but also controls the 48RE. I'm not even going to guess if a flash update would work on a '03 with a 6 shooter.
12-07-2003, 12:18 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Crabjoe link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=30#msg219459 date=1070774573]Remeber that they switched ECMs from '03 to '04. The '04 ECM not only controls the motor but also controls the 48RE. [/quote]What makes you think that? Are you saying that the Transmission computer has been integrated with the main ECM rather than the two just talking to each other?
12-07-2003, 03:53 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why not the new enginematerial CGI in the block? That can make sence to the longer warranty and higher power without any visible changes.
Cifunsa can produce CGI and they are also located in Saltillo.
Mr. José Manuel Garza, General Manager of the Metal and Mechanical Division of Cifunsa, said one year ago: "We have supported the CGI development activities for more than five of our customers since 1993 and we were the first foundry in the world to install the SinterCast System 1000. Now, as the development intensity and production planning of our car and truck customers increases we have secured the SinterCast System 2000 capability on all our production Lines. Cifunsa will be a leader in CGI product development and series production."
Cifunsa’s main customers include DaimlerChrysler, General Motors, Volkswagen, Ford, John Deere, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, Cummins, International, Linamar, etc.
Cifunsa can produce CGI and they are also located in Saltillo.
Mr. José Manuel Garza, General Manager of the Metal and Mechanical Division of Cifunsa, said one year ago: "We have supported the CGI development activities for more than five of our customers since 1993 and we were the first foundry in the world to install the SinterCast System 1000. Now, as the development intensity and production planning of our car and truck customers increases we have secured the SinterCast System 2000 capability on all our production Lines. Cifunsa will be a leader in CGI product development and series production."
Cifunsa’s main customers include DaimlerChrysler, General Motors, Volkswagen, Ford, John Deere, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, Cummins, International, Linamar, etc.
12-07-2003, 03:57 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From 1999 GIFA.
Apart from the Stand-Alone System 2000 Process Control Equipment, the SinterCast display featured a wide range of Compacted Graphite Iron (CGI) components including the new Audi V8 TDI Diesel Engine Block, cast at Halberg Guss, Germany. Other displayed CGI components cast during 1994 to 1999 included a 5.9 litre Cummins Diesel engine block cast at Tupy, Brazil and a 2.0 litre Ford gasoline engine block cast at Cifunsa, Mexico.
--------------------
"CGI may also find applications in allowing a grey iron engine design that is near the end of its life cycle to be boosted to become market competitive with newer engines entering the market, thus prolonging the life cycle of the engine family"
from
http://www.sintercast.com/index1.htm
Apart from the Stand-Alone System 2000 Process Control Equipment, the SinterCast display featured a wide range of Compacted Graphite Iron (CGI) components including the new Audi V8 TDI Diesel Engine Block, cast at Halberg Guss, Germany. Other displayed CGI components cast during 1994 to 1999 included a 5.9 litre Cummins Diesel engine block cast at Tupy, Brazil and a 2.0 litre Ford gasoline engine block cast at Cifunsa, Mexico.
--------------------
"CGI may also find applications in allowing a grey iron engine design that is near the end of its life cycle to be boosted to become market competitive with newer engines entering the market, thus prolonging the life cycle of the engine family"
from
http://www.sintercast.com/index1.htm
12-07-2003, 11:13 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=Matt400 link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=30#msg219483 date=1070777892]
[quote author=Crabjoe link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=30#msg219459 date=1070774573]Remeber that they switched ECMs from '03 to '04. The '04 ECM not only controls the motor but also controls the 48RE. [/quote]What makes you think that? Are you saying that the Transmission computer has been integrated with the main ECM rather than the two just talking to each other?
[/quote]
Matt,
That was the speculation in TDR mag (I can't remember with article, but I think it was the last) and also this post over at TDR has a guy confirming that when he checked his '04 shop manual, it only has a Cummins ECM controlling both the engine and the 48RE, where in '03, they had a separate PCM control the 48RE.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...light=ecm+48re
[quote author=Crabjoe link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=30#msg219459 date=1070774573]Remeber that they switched ECMs from '03 to '04. The '04 ECM not only controls the motor but also controls the 48RE. [/quote]What makes you think that? Are you saying that the Transmission computer has been integrated with the main ECM rather than the two just talking to each other?
[/quote]
Matt,
That was the speculation in TDR mag (I can't remember with article, but I think it was the last) and also this post over at TDR has a guy confirming that when he checked his '04 shop manual, it only has a Cummins ECM controlling both the engine and the 48RE, where in '03, they had a separate PCM control the 48RE.
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/f...light=ecm+48re
12-08-2003, 08:20 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ok, you guys who waited (to buy) will like this: DC just told me that the 2004.5 trucks with the Cummins 600 has:
1. New exhaust manifold
2. FIVE INCH pipe from manifold to muffer
3. FOUR INCH pipe from muff to tail
4. no EGR
5. no CAT
wow. wonder how those things sound! what on earth are they doing for a turbocharger!
1. New exhaust manifold
2. FIVE INCH pipe from manifold to muffer
3. FOUR INCH pipe from muff to tail
4. no EGR
5. no CAT
wow. wonder how those things sound! what on earth are they doing for a turbocharger!
12-08-2003, 11:42 AM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, Doug, now I'm getting excited. How soon can I order? It doesn't look like there's anything there to cause new model problems.
12-08-2003, 01:50 PM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm not sure about this, but I thought the ordering restriction was lifted and that only the new trucks were being built now. anyway, if I were waiting to order I think I'd be thinking about February -- enough time for the first few to dribble off the line and onto dealer's lots, so that I could see what's under the hood, get first reactions from dealers, drive one, etc.
and there's always that uncertainty that the DC call center is wrong. However, for the amount of secrecy that they've had recently, though, the fact that they are suddenly talking makes me think that they only say what they're allowed to say -- meaning that what they say over the phone is most likely correct.
and there's always that uncertainty that the DC call center is wrong. However, for the amount of secrecy that they've had recently, though, the fact that they are suddenly talking makes me think that they only say what they're allowed to say -- meaning that what they say over the phone is most likely correct.
12-08-2003, 02:46 PM
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Re:New power number's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[quote author=bulabula link=board=20;threadid=23101;start=30#msg219086 date=1070706931]
The New Venture page still lists the max input torque of the 6 shooter at 550 lbs of torque.
The 600 number appears to be a warranty buster right there. [/quote]
Well, consider that NV doesn't make the tranny anyway. it's made by "manual transmissions of muncie" which is a GM subsidiary.
Also for the rumor mill is the suggestion that DC may switch to a mercades transmission. think about it: you have a GM transmission with a 550 ft lb torque limit. You own Mercades and you bump up the Cummins engine torque to 600. what do you do? I got my bet on a tranny change.
Will the 2004.5 trucks in January be even available with a standard transmission? any hold or restriction there suggests a Vendor change. Personally, I doubt that DC would go through the vendor qualification process to keep the 5600.
The New Venture page still lists the max input torque of the 6 shooter at 550 lbs of torque.
The 600 number appears to be a warranty buster right there. [/quote]
Well, consider that NV doesn't make the tranny anyway. it's made by "manual transmissions of muncie" which is a GM subsidiary.
Also for the rumor mill is the suggestion that DC may switch to a mercades transmission. think about it: you have a GM transmission with a 550 ft lb torque limit. You own Mercades and you bump up the Cummins engine torque to 600. what do you do? I got my bet on a tranny change.
Will the 2004.5 trucks in January be even available with a standard transmission? any hold or restriction there suggests a Vendor change. Personally, I doubt that DC would go through the vendor qualification process to keep the 5600.