Guardrail

But you have to remember... when you plug aftermarket performance items into an OEM motor, you accept a certain amount of risk. The "extra" always comes with a price, whether it be longevity or collateral damage to something else. It that weren't the case, the manufacturer would put the engine out with 1000 hp and 1200 ft lbs of torque.

AK RAM

I'm watching your progress and it sure does suck, but it seems you have done everything BUT have BullyDog send you a recovery downloader. Are you not planning on trying that?

NHDiesel

Just some various opinions:

1. Your first mistake was buying a used BD. I like to save money, but I always know the risks ahead of time. When you buy something new, consider the extra money you spend as being for tech. help, warranty, etc. If you would have bought it new, I'm sure BD would have done something to help you. They didn't make any money on you, so why should they try to help?

2. ECMs are programable at the dealer level. They should have been able to access DC's original records and downloaded the original programming, based on your VIN#, and put it back into your original ECM, or the replacement.

3. Used ECM's on ebay are not a problem, but the required info does depend on make and model. I have sold close to a hundred various Jeep ECMs and TCUs (Transmission Control Units), and never had a problem. Those only needed the basics...match engine and transmission options, and thats it (at least on the older ones we usually dealt with). Newer vehicles have options such as security systems, ECM controlled climate controls, etc. If you were able to match all of the necessary options exactly, you would be able to buy a used one, plug it in, and drive away. But again, even if it was different, the dealer should be able to correct it by loading in your original programming.

4. The programmer shouldn't have caused any type of a hard failure (damaged the ECM beyond use), just a soft failure...requiring reprogramming, but thats it. It sounds like the dealer either doesn't know what he is talking about (most likely not experienced enough), or they are trying to grab your wallet. I have been through some Chrysler factory training, and its a joke. He can spout all the certificates he wants, but that doesn't mean he knows it all. Many manufacturer's idea of "factory level training" is to sit in front of a TV screen, watch a video, and answer questions at the end. Don't know the answer to one? Rewind and try again until you get it right.

5. Getting ticked off and wanting to trade the truck in is not a solution. You made the mistake, even though you didn't intend to, (by programming it with a used BD you got from a friend). The truck was working fine up until then, and BD doesn't owe you a thing since you didn't buy it new. Fix the truck and keep it...you must like it, if you went through the trouble of wanting to modify it. Getting a gas sucking, low torque gasser isn't the answer. Take a deep breath, lean from this, and move on.

I'm surprised more people haven't touched on the problems woith buying used electronics. Have you ever wondered why most part's stores have a policy of not allowing returns of electrical parts? How many times has the programmer been dropped? Did someone leave it outside in the rain? Drop it in a sink full of water? Accidentally zap it with static electricity? It sounds like the guy is your friend, but there are lots of things that could have happened to the programmer that could be by total accident. Or it could have been a factory problem, which BD is no longer responsible for. For what its worth, it does suck though, and I feel bad for what you are going through.

Jim

Superduty

" 2. ECMs are programable at the dealer level. They should have been able to access DC's original records and downloaded the original programming, based on your VIN#, and put it back into your original ECM, or the replacement."

The dealer is at the heart of the problem. I know from installing my Cummins that the dealer can reprogram any 3rd gen ECM to work with any 3rd gen engine/truck. It isn't rocket science and the dealer should be able to do it in 30 minutes or so.

The dealer can also check the ECM quite easily. It does self checks on power up (memory, code, i/o) and has all sorts of validity checks on its inputs/outputs.

They also certainly aren't fragile. Most of the I/O on the ECM is buffered and current limited, so damaging them isn't easy.

This whole post screams dealer incompetence. I'm sorry for saying it, but maybe it needs to be said.

fredw

might want to try westers garage if no one wants to try in fix the ecm, i know he fixes gm ecms, and have heard he has been programing certain dodge ecms, if anyone can do it, he would be the one

04ctd

Jim,

Here’s random thoughts, not arguing, but just commenting:

1) If I worked for BD, just out of curiosity, I would want to know what happened, to be able to prevent it in the future. so if the next guy buys this new, and it cost them $1700 in repairs, they will be a leg up. Quadzilla has multipage threads on here about finding small problems and fixing them.
2) ECM’s for 04 are NOT programmable at the dealer, per the previous TSB posted, which strictly states the 03 and below. I think that is to prevent companies hacking their software and FUBAR’ing it like this. That is probably why the other BD threads say they have Brazilian/Argentina software
3) Apples & Oranges. Cummins and Dodge don’t play well together, and the ECM is Cummins proprietary property, and they sell a box to Dodge. It is like WINDOWS, they sell you the right to use, not the right to de-compile and edit their software. Even the local Cummins/Onan folks can’t do anything for me. I would like to take a few weeks, poke around the internet, try to find an 04 ECM, pay shipping to Georgia, pay $65 an hour for the tech to put it in, pay $65 an hour to play with it, see if it works, pay $65 an hour to take it back out, It’s not wise to be cheap sometimes.
4) The ECM won’t “wake up” in other words, it won’t respond to commands to initiate any recovery. It won’t do ANYTHING, and they don’t have the software to do anything with the 04.5, but they at least got it to run.
5) Well, my idea was to trade it if I had to put in a Junkyard ECM that was butchered to make it run, and it was no longer trustworthy. If I pay the big bill, and get it done right, no reason to get rid of it. I was only going to lose ~$7k to trade it in (due to not running and high miles) but I figured that would be worth the peace of mind.

[QUOTE=Superduty]"
The dealer can also check the ECM quite easily. It does self-checks on power up (memory, code, i/o) and has all sorts of validity checks on its inputs/outputs. [QUOTE]
This is stuff that it should do, but does not. None of it.

I just don’t know fellas, I been praying about it. There’s an old prayer,
“God please Take me, Break me, Remold me and make me in Your Will”

I think I am in the breaking part right now….

whatever, our opinions do not matter. my truck is ~250 miles from my house, I do not have a lot of options.

I am gonna pull $2000 out of my retirement acct and pay the piper.

Superduty

"ECM's for 04 are NOT programmable at the dealer, per the previous TSB posted, which strictly states the 03 and below."

This is wrong. All Cummins 3rd gens use a generic computer and the dealer can program the computer itself to work with any truck/engine. The harness on the engine has to match what they are programming though.

Guys are buying 05 Cummins engines like I did, autos with or without SKIMs and getting them reprogrammed to be manual engines without SKIMs. A new ECM does not have to be purchased to do this either. The dealers have a procedure to do this and the tools. I can dig up further info on the process because we were going to do it on my engine when I installed it back in July.

http://dodgeram.info/tsb/2004/18-033-04.htm is a good start. Google Dodge Cummins and SKIM and you'll get more.

Superduty

"I am gonna pull $2000 out of my retirement acct and pay the piper."

NNNNOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!

I just can't believe the crap that goes on with dealers when it comes to the computers, lift pumps, CP3s and injectors.

I had to learn a lot about this stuff to do my swap. (Well, not the injectors...) At one point I thought my engine came from an Auto truck and required a SKIM so I investigated the whole reprogramming thing. I had to research the CP3 and lift pump stuff when I blew my filter housing lid sky high due to over pressuring.

Have the dealer follow the TSB I just posted to the letter and they should be able to reprogram your ECM to brand new condition. There isn't any magic to it. If they won't do it, take it to another dealer.

Superduty

"4) The ECM won't "wake up" in other words, it won't respond to commands to initiate any recovery. It won't do ANYTHING, and they don't have the software to do anything with the 04.5, but they at least got it to run."

This is BS. Get the exact procedure/tool/command your dealer is using and I'll double check it with the procedures in the shop manual.

What exactly are the symptoms right now ?

What codes does the ECM have ?

Does the fuel pump come on when you turn on the key ?

Do you hear the grid relays click when you turn on the key ?

Something doesn't make any friggin sense here. I'm tired of hearing people on this board getting into these "my dealer can't fix it" situations. And I don't even own a friggin Dodge truck ! I dunno how you guys take this.

Superduty

They have to start at page 9-1051 in the 05 Shop manual.

Does the scan tool talk with the ECM ? That is the first question.

Superduty

I'll bet $20 that the ECM doesn't have power or a decent ground.

Have all the fuses been checked ? The ECM has to see a key on position before it will "talk". Does your ignition switch work ? (hehehe... took a day of cranking my Cummins to figure out we didn't have this right when I wired it into my Ford...)

Where did the power from the box come from ? Has the box been totally removed and was the wiring all cleaned up properly ? (Like there isn't a hot wire shorting to the engine somewhere ?).

Superduty

I went through this same BS when I did my swap.

I had the shop foreman at a certain Dodge dealership look me in the eye and tell me there was no way a 3rd gen Cummins would run in a Ford unless I swapped the whole Dodge instrument panel including radio into my Ford "because they all have to talk to each other". Truth: A manual shift Cummins needs about 9 wires including a couple power and ground to run. Nothing else.

Then there was the guy that told me the Cummins engine was 200 pounds heavier than the Powerstroke. Truth: they weigh about the same. The front axle on my truck is 20 pounds lighter than it was before.

Another guy told me it was too long. The Cummins is about 2 inches longer than the PSD, but the PSD uses a spacer with the fan, so the Cummins goes right it where the PSD was.

One mechanic said "his buddy" had been working on a similar swap for 9 months and couldn't get it to run so he gave up and sold the engine. I never did get the name of "his buddy".

Then there was the guy that told me the Ford radiator was too small. And the intercooler. The Ford radiator is bigger and the intercoolers are about the same.

Then I was told the Dodge clutch was way too big for the ZF6 and the input shaft on the ZF6 was too small. Truth: Ford clutch is the same diameter as the Dodge, but has more lining area, actually stronger. The input shaft on the ZF6 is the same as the NV5600.

Then the dealership couldn't tell me what voltages the ECM needed to see for the throttle control. I posted to this board with those questions too. I figured it out by reading the shop manual between the lines.

Then I was told I needed a new ECM for the engine because it wanted a SKIM. I had a dealer do a search via the VIN and my engine came from a 6speed truck without a VIN. And I found a dealer that had reprogrammed some ECMs for a guy.

When I blew the filter housing lid I was told my CP3 was shot. That what I got for buying a used engine. I should have just bought a Dodge in the first place. Truth: CP3s have a positive displacement lift pump built into them. There was nothing wrong with the CP3.

It was all BS. Dealers don't know a sparkplug from an injector when it comes to the 3rd gen Cummins. They know how to replace parts and that is about it.

Reading this stuff makes steam come out of my ears.

04ctd

NOPE. the ECM that was hooked to the BD will NOT talk to the Scan Tool, meaning it is a digital paperweight.

the new ECM (the 04.5) will talk to the Scan Tool, meaning there are no electrical connections that are causing the original ECM not to function. (remember it cranked and moved itself on the 04.5 ECM)

with the TSB you posted, my Tech should be able to fix it. He's been my wifes "personal mechanic" for years, when she worked there, only one she trusted to work on the SS. I called & gave him the TSB #

Superduty

I wouldn't go there so fast. A hung ECM can be reset by powering off and a special power up sequence. They write things into flash and if the wrong thing gets written it will not run, just like a PC. Before you drop your 2K, let me have a closer look at the shop manual procedure.

Superduty

You could have gotten a new ECM outright it appears from here:

http://www.trademotion.com/partlocat...05&catalogid=1

Price is $1228.

www.car-part.com has an ECM for a 2005 D2500 MT Cummins 5.9 for $250. Your dealer could easily reprogram it as the TSB I gave showed.

McClurg Auto Parts Inc. - KOLT USA-TX(Snyder) E-mail 1-800-527-4179

Stock number 051204

I am still working on resetting the ECM.