Upgrade to medium duty trans.. anyone?
01-17-2008, 08:32 AM
#31
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BTW...
I was doing some thinking.. It seems to me the NV4500 weak point is 5th gear.. it runs on its own shaft.. the rest of the gears are on the main shaft.. we are currently running in 4th.. at 60 mph he tells me he is turning 2300 RPM.. I wonder if I should just run this trans in 4th.. maybe 5th is just too low an rpm for heavy loads? The "nut issue" occurs due to low rpm pounding on the 5th gear.. I am pretty sure this is what has happened again...
I am waiting to hear what MPG we get.. we used to get 9-10 with a full load..
any thoughts on this? is 2300 too much for this engine?
I was doing some thinking.. It seems to me the NV4500 weak point is 5th gear.. it runs on its own shaft.. the rest of the gears are on the main shaft.. we are currently running in 4th.. at 60 mph he tells me he is turning 2300 RPM.. I wonder if I should just run this trans in 4th.. maybe 5th is just too low an rpm for heavy loads? The "nut issue" occurs due to low rpm pounding on the 5th gear.. I am pretty sure this is what has happened again...
I am waiting to hear what MPG we get.. we used to get 9-10 with a full load..
any thoughts on this? is 2300 too much for this engine?
01-17-2008, 08:33 AM
#33
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Looks like the AT545 doesn't have a lockup converter. 1stgen545 posted that he was running nearly 2300 RPMs in 4th with 38" tires at 70mph!
I guess your only other option for the auto is the allison 1000/2000 series. When I had my 04' Chevy Duramax/Allison I hauled a load from Ohio to Arizona, 5500 miles round trip with small detours.
I did not weigh the truck/trailer, but I was hauling a 35' fifth wheel enclosed cargo trailer that was loaded to the hilt with two apartments worth of boxes, a car, motorcycle and some other things.
Once out of Ohio, I ran 70-90MPH non-stop for 36 hours without shutting the truck off. My grandpa and I would cycle driving duties every tank of fuel and kept on truckin!
Darn good truck and miss the heck out of it, but my 99' Dodge is cheaper! You get what you pay for though... I will be getting another Duramax/Allison sooner than later.
Take care,
Dan
I guess your only other option for the auto is the allison 1000/2000 series. When I had my 04' Chevy Duramax/Allison I hauled a load from Ohio to Arizona, 5500 miles round trip with small detours.
I did not weigh the truck/trailer, but I was hauling a 35' fifth wheel enclosed cargo trailer that was loaded to the hilt with two apartments worth of boxes, a car, motorcycle and some other things.
Once out of Ohio, I ran 70-90MPH non-stop for 36 hours without shutting the truck off. My grandpa and I would cycle driving duties every tank of fuel and kept on truckin!
Darn good truck and miss the heck out of it, but my 99' Dodge is cheaper! You get what you pay for though... I will be getting another Duramax/Allison sooner than later.
Take care,
Dan
01-17-2008, 08:43 AM
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I'm seriously thinking about getting my fifth fixed (again) and then running in 4th. I am anxious to see what MPG we get.. if its less than a 3mpg loss I think I might give that a go. My driver is not going to be happy about driving 60 though.. but I think he has been driving a little too fast.. he has been going the speed limit.. which tells me he has been drving 75.. which I did not know until yesterday.. that is TOO fast for this truck.. I'm gonna put him on a speed limiter I think.. if I can figure out how to do it.
01-17-2008, 08:59 AM
#36
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Again, please read the link I provided previously. 5th gear does not have to be deficient. There is no good excuse to have an inoperative 5th gear. There are several suppliers that think they have a proper 5th gear fix....they do not. Your very own first hand experience supports this.
Your 5th gear is failing because it is simply not up to the task you are asking of it, period. Too much torque and corresponding load works the gear/spline engagement on the shaft loose and the nut does not stand a chance of holding the gear in place when that happens. Once this happens, adding another nut will not fix it since the gear/shaft fit is now compromised. To get thoroughly educated on the NV4500 5th gear problem, read THIS LINK and you will see how they have redesigned it to suit the high torque diesel application. I have yet to find another source that is aware of how to properly address the problem.
Your 5th gear is failing because it is simply not up to the task you are asking of it, period. Too much torque and corresponding load works the gear/spline engagement on the shaft loose and the nut does not stand a chance of holding the gear in place when that happens. Once this happens, adding another nut will not fix it since the gear/shaft fit is now compromised. To get thoroughly educated on the NV4500 5th gear problem, read THIS LINK and you will see how they have redesigned it to suit the high torque diesel application. I have yet to find another source that is aware of how to properly address the problem.
01-17-2008, 09:01 AM
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01-17-2008, 09:05 AM
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Again, please read the link I provided previously. 5th gear does not have to be deficient. There is no good excuse to have an inoperative 5th gear. There are several suppliers that think they have a proper 5th gear fix....they do not. Your very own first hand experience supports this.
Your 5th gear is failing because it is simply not up to the task you are asking of it, period. Too much torque and corresponding load works the gear/spline engagement on the shaft loose and the nut does not stand a chance of holding the gear in place when that happens. Once this happens, adding another nut will not fix it since the gear/shaft fit is now compromised. To get thoroughly educated on the NV4500 5th gear problem, read THIS LINK and you will see how they have redesigned it to suit the high torque diesel application. I have yet to find another source that is aware of how to properly address the problem.
Your 5th gear is failing because it is simply not up to the task you are asking of it, period. Too much torque and corresponding load works the gear/spline engagement on the shaft loose and the nut does not stand a chance of holding the gear in place when that happens. Once this happens, adding another nut will not fix it since the gear/shaft fit is now compromised. To get thoroughly educated on the NV4500 5th gear problem, read THIS LINK and you will see how they have redesigned it to suit the high torque diesel application. I have yet to find another source that is aware of how to properly address the problem.
EDIT: I will call the shop monday and pin him to the floor until he tells me who made the kit or at least get the warehouse name so I can get to the bottom of what exactly he put in.. but my driver looked at both units and said the splines were twice as deep.. those were his words.
01-17-2008, 09:07 AM
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After reading about this tuner ($600.00) it sounds like the way to go about this is to have a shop do it for much cheaper.. now if I can find one...
01-17-2008, 09:29 AM
#40
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I've read that link like 12,000 times. I understand. But I am telling you the issue is the splines.. (read the site) and the unit they put in had the FULL splines.
EDIT: I will call the shop monday and pin him to the floor until he tells me who made the kit or at least get the warehouse name so I can get to the bottom of what exactly he put in.. but my driver looked at both units and said the splines were twice as deep.. those were his words.
EDIT: I will call the shop monday and pin him to the floor until he tells me who made the kit or at least get the warehouse name so I can get to the bottom of what exactly he put in.. but my driver looked at both units and said the splines were twice as deep.. those were his words.
The proper shaft isn't even a full spline piece but rather quite a departure from the stock and so called full spline "upgrades". The gear face is machined for a pilot ring with additional support and so on.
There isn't much need to grill your tranny builder....we already know that the proper shaft and gear assembly was not used in the build.
To save some time I quoted Quad on a description of the redesign:
"First off, we knew we had to use a partial, fixed spline shaft to eliminate the rocking motion of the gear that plagues all previous mainshaft designs. The unsplined area is increased in diameter to a size larger than the shaft splines. This gear design was modified from a full spline to a partial spline. The area without splines is precision machined to provide an “interference” or press fit with the larger diameter, unsplined area on the mainshaft. Depending upon application, the gear may be shorter or longer than stock. The rear gear face for most applications is modified to accept a pilot ring. The rear single lock nut is replaced by either a double or triple nut retaining system. The outer nut is a lock nut. The inner nut may be flat or incorporate a pilot ring depending upon application. On new shafts, a hardened, tanged thrust washer is also used. For retrofit kits, a Belleville spring lock washer is used. We also had to invent several new tools to ease installation. To increase holding power and decrease the chance of vibration induced fretting, we use several Permatex® locking compounds with 3,000-4,000 psi. shear strengths. Our Patented design is known as the Torque King®."
01-17-2008, 09:54 AM
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Ok, I'm trying to be respectful here BUT a full spline shaft and/or splines that are twice as deep have nothing to do with solving the problem!! A full spline shaft is an "upgraded" shaft from another supplier that has been proven NOT to work!! Are you sure you read the whole article thoroughly? It goes into great detail about why the full spline shafts do not fix the problem.
The proper shaft isn't even a full spline piece but rather quite a departure from the stock and so called full spline "upgrades". The gear face is machined for a pilot ring with additional support and so on.
There isn't much need to grill your tranny builder....we already know that the proper shaft and gear assembly was not used in the build.
To save some time I quoted Quad on a description of the redesign:
"First off, we knew we had to use a partial, fixed spline shaft to eliminate the rocking motion of the gear that plagues all previous mainshaft designs. The unsplined area is increased in diameter to a size larger than the shaft splines. This gear design was modified from a full spline to a partial spline. The area without splines is precision machined to provide an “interference” or press fit with the larger diameter, unsplined area on the mainshaft. Depending upon application, the gear may be shorter or longer than stock. The rear gear face for most applications is modified to accept a pilot ring. The rear single lock nut is replaced by either a double or triple nut retaining system. The outer nut is a lock nut. The inner nut may be flat or incorporate a pilot ring depending upon application. On new shafts, a hardened, tanged thrust washer is also used. For retrofit kits, a Belleville spring lock washer is used. We also had to invent several new tools to ease installation. To increase holding power and decrease the chance of vibration induced fretting, we use several Permatex® locking compounds with 3,000-4,000 psi. shear strengths. Our Patented design is known as the Torque King®."
The proper shaft isn't even a full spline piece but rather quite a departure from the stock and so called full spline "upgrades". The gear face is machined for a pilot ring with additional support and so on.
There isn't much need to grill your tranny builder....we already know that the proper shaft and gear assembly was not used in the build.
To save some time I quoted Quad on a description of the redesign:
"First off, we knew we had to use a partial, fixed spline shaft to eliminate the rocking motion of the gear that plagues all previous mainshaft designs. The unsplined area is increased in diameter to a size larger than the shaft splines. This gear design was modified from a full spline to a partial spline. The area without splines is precision machined to provide an “interference” or press fit with the larger diameter, unsplined area on the mainshaft. Depending upon application, the gear may be shorter or longer than stock. The rear gear face for most applications is modified to accept a pilot ring. The rear single lock nut is replaced by either a double or triple nut retaining system. The outer nut is a lock nut. The inner nut may be flat or incorporate a pilot ring depending upon application. On new shafts, a hardened, tanged thrust washer is also used. For retrofit kits, a Belleville spring lock washer is used. We also had to invent several new tools to ease installation. To increase holding power and decrease the chance of vibration induced fretting, we use several Permatex® locking compounds with 3,000-4,000 psi. shear strengths. Our Patented design is known as the Torque King®."
The splines on the shaft they used were also deeper than the stock plines.. but the most important part is they extended all the way down the shaft as far as possible.. thats what I meant by full splines.. I do not know if the diameter was increased however..
Even with all this being said.. how do you even know if this website is correct? Have you done back to back identical environment testing? I dont think anyone has.. they have no "proof" that what they recommend is even correct.. none whatsoever. Let's face it, when you put a new 5th in that trans is very likely to go a long time with no issues EVEN IF YOU PUT IDENTICAL PARTS BACK IN! So they dont hear from people and they think they have a great product.. HA HA HA .. go pull 30,000 lbs like I did and lets see what happens (and for the record, it was 29,952 lbs).
All I know is 5th gear in the NV4500 is crap. the design is flawed and New Ventures is apparently out of business and left it unaddressed. So, even if I "fixed" it I'd be taking a chance.. my 5th gear was so bad it took out both the driven and drive 5th gear.. So I am not sure I want to take the chance that this will happen again.. seems like if my mpg is not hurt bad, turning at 2300 rpm (which is EXACTLY what the ATS545 does) is probably not a bad idea! Most auto transmissions LOCK OUT the overdrive anyway.. so why not lock mine out?
One thing I can tell you for sure is I am not going to spend another $3k on this transmission.. no way no how. And I certainly am not going to put my trust in some website that I can't verify. If you like I could write a really good article complete with photos on how to make YOUR chicken crap golden eggs.
EDIT: I'm gonna take back my comment about NV.. if idiots like me did not push the truck beyond what its supposed to pull that 5th would be fine.
RIDICULOUS COMMENT:"There isn't much need to grill your tranny builder....we already know that the proper shaft and gear assembly was not used in the build."
01-17-2008, 10:33 AM
#42
Chapter President
Well, as with anything, sooner or later you will have to trust someone at some point in order to be able to move on with solving your problems. You can take all the suggestions for what you feel they are worth and move on with solving the problem how you see fit. But as far as calling my comment rediculous, from where I stand that seems hard to imagine considering you are the one with the truck with the broken 5th gear. Suggesting it is rediculous is implying it is incorrect.....if the shaft and gear failed, it is not the proper assembly. You either agree with that statement or not. Since it is broken, I'm having trouble seeing the justification in implying it could be the proper assembly. Quad 4x4 has built a solid reputation for building great parts and providing excellent solutions and customer service. If you aren't going to even call them to explore your options further, it sounds like you won't be satisfied with anything other than a mdium duty tranny.....so what are you arguing? Go ahead and don't trust them anymore than the next guy and install the medium duty tranny. Installing another 5th gear assembly from the same supplier where the 5th gear has been proven to fail from your own first hand experience seems futile to me. Don't take back your NV comment....the 5th gear is crap....there are several other trannies that don't suffer from this issue.....the point is, there is a proper way to address the issue with some facts to back it up. Has anyone else taken the time to explain specifically why the 5th gear fails and why the other upgrades fail and how the correction works and differs from the others? Probably not.....
01-17-2008, 11:05 AM
#43
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Well, as with anything, sooner or later you will have to trust someone at some point in order to be able to move on with solving your problems. You can take all the suggestions for what you feel they are worth and move on with solving the problem how you see fit. But as far as calling my comment rediculous, from where I stand that seems hard to imagine considering you are the one with the truck with the broken 5th gear. Suggesting it is rediculous is implying it is incorrect.....if the shaft and gear failed, it is not the proper assembly. You either agree with that statement or not. Since it is broken, I'm having trouble seeing the justification in implying it could be the proper assembly. Quad 4x4 has built a solid reputation for building great parts and providing excellent solutions and customer service. If you aren't going to even call them to explore your options further, it sounds like you won't be satisfied with anything other than a mdium duty tranny.....so what are you arguing? Go ahead and don't trust them anymore than the next guy and install the medium duty tranny. Installing another 5th gear assembly from the same supplier where the 5th gear has been proven to fail from your own first hand experience seems futile to me. Don't take back your NV comment....the 5th gear is crap....there are several other trannies that don't suffer from this issue.....the point is, there is a proper way to address the issue with some facts to back it up. Has anyone else taken the time to explain specifically why the 5th gear fails and why the other upgrades fail and how the correction works and differs from the others? Probably not.....
I hear ya.. but I have to say.. I just can't sink $3k into that tranny again.. just can't do it. If you sunk 3k into it I bet you'd feel the same.. At this point your comment IS ridiculous because for all I know the case failed. You have no idea why it failed right now..
What is cool is my driver stopped using it the instant it started to vibrate.. so the reason for the problem is going to be obvious this time. I am wondering if the "nut" they used was reverse thread.. I didnt ask that.. and wish I did.
Anyway.. after reading more about 4th gear.. it does not run on any of the shafts the other gears are on, essentially because it is a direct drive gear so it is probably bulletproof.. I just wonder what the MPG is gonna be like.. should know soon.
I dont make much profit doing this right now so that $3k really set me back.. I'm sure you can appreciate that.. so whatever I do.. I can't be wondering if it will work.. if I spend $2-3k its gotta be a sure thing (within reason of course).. as far as trust.. well.. ya know, trusting a lone website is a bit much... I can't find anyone who said they kept breaking 5th and then went to their shaft and now its fine.. if you do please let me know.. that would be proof enough for me.
I'll report MPG and what my local Aamco shop finds.. this is probably an interesting thread for a lot of hotshotters like me trying to make an old truck work (mine is a 99).
From what I hear the new Dodges are quite something to own.. I wish I had $40k.
01-17-2008, 11:32 AM
#44
Chapter President
Well, from where I stand and with my experience in relation to the tow truck failures I have seen first hand, I would not sink another dime into an NV4500. 5th gear isn't the only issue when hauling really heavy. The 3rd gear cluster and syncros get beat to death and overworked prematurely too. And FWIW, I absolutely do feel the same way about investing that kind of money in a transmission. I am not an independently wealthy person that can blow $3K on a whim. That is a significant amount of my income and I take that amount of spending very seriously.
I know of a couple of NV4500's that had the Quad 5th gear assembly retrofitted but unfortunately, I cannot comment on any first hand experience with them as I do not know the owners personally. As far as I know, there has been no failures but that is heresay at the moment.
To summarize, if you want my .02 on your problem, it would be to not spend anymore money on an NV4500 and take the small potential hit in mileage and use forth gear until you devise a viable tranny swap. The 4500 is a good tranny but you are pushing it well past its intended limits of input torque capacity and weight limits. I can already envision you investing in a 5th gear retrofit only to have 3rd pack it in later - at which point the entire transmission would have to be rebuilt and the 3rd gear issues typically will leave the truck immobile. These risks are not ones I would be willing to assume. I know you don't trust my rhetoric, but the 5600 really would be suited well to your application. That is a time-proven tranny and nearly a direct bolt in....but yes, finding a source for one at a reasonable price could be a potential issue - but they are out there.
I know of a couple of NV4500's that had the Quad 5th gear assembly retrofitted but unfortunately, I cannot comment on any first hand experience with them as I do not know the owners personally. As far as I know, there has been no failures but that is heresay at the moment.
To summarize, if you want my .02 on your problem, it would be to not spend anymore money on an NV4500 and take the small potential hit in mileage and use forth gear until you devise a viable tranny swap. The 4500 is a good tranny but you are pushing it well past its intended limits of input torque capacity and weight limits. I can already envision you investing in a 5th gear retrofit only to have 3rd pack it in later - at which point the entire transmission would have to be rebuilt and the 3rd gear issues typically will leave the truck immobile. These risks are not ones I would be willing to assume. I know you don't trust my rhetoric, but the 5600 really would be suited well to your application. That is a time-proven tranny and nearly a direct bolt in....but yes, finding a source for one at a reasonable price could be a potential issue - but they are out there.
01-17-2008, 11:44 AM
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Well, from where I stand and with my experience in relation to the tow truck failures I have seen first hand, I would not sink another dime into an NV4500. 5th gear isn't the only issue when hauling really heavy. The 3rd gear cluster and syncros get beat to death and overworked prematurely too. And FWIW, I absolutely do feel the same way about investing that kind of money in a transmission. I am not an independently wealthy person that can blow $3K on a whim. That is a significant amount of my income and I take that amount of spending very seriously.
I know of a couple of NV4500's that had the Quad 5th gear assembly retrofitted but unfortunately, I cannot comment on any first hand experience with them as I do not know the owners personally. As far as I know, there has been no failures but that is heresay at the moment.
To summarize, if you want my .02 on your problem, it would be to not spend anymore money on an NV4500 and take the small potential hit in mileage and use forth gear until you devise a viable tranny swap. The 4500 is a good tranny but you are pushing it well past its intended limits of input torque capacity and weight limits. I can already envision you investing in a 5th gear retrofit only to have 3rd pack it in later - at which point the entire transmission would have to be rebuilt and the 3rd gear issues typically will leave the truck immobile. These risks are not ones I would be willing to assume. I know you don't trust my rhetoric, but the 5600 really would be suited well to your application. That is a time-proven tranny and nearly a direct bolt in....but yes, finding a source for one at a reasonable price could be a potential issue - but they are out there.
I know of a couple of NV4500's that had the Quad 5th gear assembly retrofitted but unfortunately, I cannot comment on any first hand experience with them as I do not know the owners personally. As far as I know, there has been no failures but that is heresay at the moment.
To summarize, if you want my .02 on your problem, it would be to not spend anymore money on an NV4500 and take the small potential hit in mileage and use forth gear until you devise a viable tranny swap. The 4500 is a good tranny but you are pushing it well past its intended limits of input torque capacity and weight limits. I can already envision you investing in a 5th gear retrofit only to have 3rd pack it in later - at which point the entire transmission would have to be rebuilt and the 3rd gear issues typically will leave the truck immobile. These risks are not ones I would be willing to assume. I know you don't trust my rhetoric, but the 5600 really would be suited well to your application. That is a time-proven tranny and nearly a direct bolt in....but yes, finding a source for one at a reasonable price could be a potential issue - but they are out there.
Well, this is some good advice for sure..
I just spoke to my driver.. I forgot, once we replaced the throttle position sensor a few months ago our mileage went to 12mpg. In my opinion.. any dodge with more than 150k should have this done.. you wont even feel it when it starts to go but it will kill your mileage..
So he says he has been driving 65 at 2500 (this is my concern.. he will go to 70 soon)... he got 11.9 MPG!! WOW! that is crazy.. that cummins is something else man.. work of frickin art is what it is.
SO.... I'm going with 4th and a speed limiter.. thats the short term until I come up with something else.. maybe I can look for a cheap 5600.. I have no issues with that tranny but I aont paying $5k for it.. no way..
At this point I would suggest any NV4500 owners running over 23k to run in 4th.. you are flirting with disaster if you do not do it in my opinion.. the trans is rated for 21k period..
Boy, this has been a cheap fix
Hell, even if I have to spend $600 for that gizmo to set my speed I will be way ahead! I think he will be WAY better off running 65.. over 65 he is unsafe no matter how careful he is.. I'm pretty excited because I think this is going to do it! Does anyone think 2500 revs is too much to run? I know it will reduce the life of the motor but if I keep the oil clean I would think it wouldnt reduce it my much.. Im fully expecting 400k out of the motor minumum with the maintenance that I do.. (its probably time for an overhead too)..
Im still interested to see what happened and should know by middle of next week and will report back. Seems to me a bad vibration HAS to be a loose shaft.. but what do I know?
Also, thanks for ALL the input here.. ALL of it.. even if I disagree its made me think... so I really appreciate all the help.. great bunch of guys here.