Hi Everyone,<br>I have experienced hard starting when it got down to 7 degrees, -5 over all low (Not plugged In). I don't have any problems when my truck is plugged in. Down to the 18 degree range has not been a problem if unplugged but 7 degrees has been the brake over point. By hard this is what I mean:<br>1 Cycled perheater twice,<br>2 Tried to start..puff...puff<br>3 Cycled perheater,<br>4 Tried to start...puff...puff<br>5 Cycled perheater,<br>6 Tried to start...puff...puff<br>7 Started to panic (I wondered how much my battery can take) so I plugged it in for 15 min.<br>8 Cycled perheater<br>9 Tried to start...puff...puff<br>10 Cycled perheater<br>11 Tried to start...puff..puff<br>12 Cycled perheater<br>13 Cranked and it fired instantly.<br>I made an appointment with the dealer for next Thursday (2/19) to check things out. I think I have a deffinent problem. I know others that have rigs that fire down to -20 unplugged. My rig just turned 7000 miles and I have been running 12 oz per 35 gal Power Service for the last 2 fill ups. Any thoughts of what they should be looking at?? I just want some thoughts before I talk with the mechanic so I know if he is on the &quot;Up and Up&quot;. I suspect a perheater or fuel pressure problem . Any Thoughts??? Thanks in advance. Ken

 

Maybey the fuel pump?

 

First off check the voltage on your pre heat connectors when preheat is started this should tell you if its a preheat problem.<br>Second check your fuel tank pump to make sure its working. <br>Third check you high pressure lines to make sure your injectors are not leaking. <br>This is just a start if you need more if try to get ahold of the shop manuals from DC Cummins; they are very useful. Hope this helps.

 

I was just up at Silver Star Ski Area in Canada. Temp was the same 7-10 degrees, american standard, in the morning. Ran the Cycle 4 times and still would not start in the normal 5 sec. or less. Ran one more cycle and it took about 12 sec. but started fine. Had to let the motor turn over longer than normal but it started. I did this for a couple of days, same proceedure, no problem.

 

I had the same problem this past weekend, temp was only 18 at the ski area. 2002 Truck was parked all night, when went to start in the morning I cycled grid heater like usual and cranked it over, sounded like only a few cylinders where firing then died after a few seconds. Re-cycled the grid heaters and could hear lift pump running for approx 20-30 seconds and tried again and still same thing. Kept repeating this process, even cycle grid heaters twice before attempting to start, until I was worried the batteries would get too low to work anymore. I finally ended up not letting off the key once it started to fire and just kept cranking it over (maybe around 15-20 seconds) until she finally sounded like all cyclinders where finally firing, and it was very rough running/ideling for about 20-30 seconds. Truck only has 5000miles and this was my first time of starting this truck in weather that cold. I'm very disappointed in this new truck, the next day it was -1 and my '95 truck started on the first try (was a little rough running for about 15 seconds then smoothed out) with only one grid heater cycle. Are the 24valve engines just harder to start than 12 valves in cold weather, or do I also have a problem??<br><br>PS: I checked lift pump pressures at 1500 miles and all was well, have not re-checked since. Guess I will check again this weekend.

 

My truck used to start up bump of the starter in cold weather not plugged now if it's belaw 20 or so I so the usual bump to start &amp; it does not start so I try to start it again this time just a little longer maybe 3-5 secs &amp; it starts right up no prob. does this every time I don't plug it in &amp; it gets real cold did this since I got a TSB reflash done. my lift pump also runs very short since the reflash I think that could be one of the problems, before the reflash the LP would run about 3-5 secs now it just goes 1-2 the most I think the computer cycle changed.<br><br>DRecu!

 

Hi Everyone,<br>Here's an update and what I have found out since my first posting. I am hearing that the 24V do start harder than the 12V because of the computer. The older 12V models without the computer start better because you can give them throttle to help aid in cold weather. The newer 24V have computers that does a couple of things that I question..at least for cold weather. The computer holds out the motor from starting until it sees oil pressure and holds out the throttle until it sees the motor running, both could slow start up in cold conditions. Also I have read on several boards that the biggest complaint about diesels in general (Ford,Chevy and Dodge) is that not every dealer has good qualified diesel mechanics. I with tell you that this is true with my experiences. I have had my truck in twice to the dealer and the last time was for 3 days which when I picked it up today and they had done nothing to address the start up problems. So today I generated an email to Powermaster@ cummins.com<br>I think you all might find it interesting.<br>I wrote the following:<br><br>Dear Cummins,<br>I purchased a new 2002 Cummins/Dodge 3500 4X4 HO this last summer. It has been a wonderful truck and is a awesome pulling rig. I live in Wyoming and have to deal with the challenges of cold weather situations. Over the last several weeks I have had two situations that have become concerning to me. When temperatures reached +7 and -2 respectively the truck became very hard to start when not plugged in. I have been adding Power Service antigel at the rate of 12 oz. per 35 gallon fillup to prevent any gelling problems. I have been told by other 24V Cummins owners and the Salesman from the dealership that the Cummins will fire at extremely low temperatures (to -20) but you have to let them warm up before driving. <br><br>The first time my truck was hard to start went like this (Overhead temp was +7):<br>Cycled perheater twice...tried to start....no go.<br>Cycled perheater...tried to start...no go.<br>Cycled perheater...tried to start...no go.<br>I started to panic, concerned how long my battery would last so I plugged it in for 15 minutes. I don't think this was long enough to really help.<br>Cycled perheater...tried to start...no go.<br>Cycled perheater...tried to start...no go.<br>Cycled perheater...tried to start..fired and ran on all 6 cylinders. High idle activated and 3 cylinder cut out activated. <br><br>The second time it was hard to start went like this (Overhead temp was -2):<br>Cycled perheater 4 times and tried to start...no go.<br>Cycled perheater 3 times and tried to start...stayed on starter and it started to cough and sputter. After about 20-30 seconds the motor ramped from 1 cylinder to 2 then 3 and finally I could let off the starter and the motor would stay running. Within several seconds the motor was running on all 6 cylinders.<br><br>I have taken my truck to McCurtain Motors in Rock Springs Wy for service for this problem. The next morning start was not a problem for them because it was only +20 degrees. The mechanic cleared my computer because he saw a ABS brake code (also wiped out the cold weather enhancement) and sent me out the door. After talking with my salesman they decided to check my perheater and fuel pressure with no problems found. <br>The morning of the -2 degrees startup described above transpired so the truck is once again at the dealership. Tomorrow will be the third morning that they have had my truck so I will stop by and see what is the progress.<br><br>Now for the questions: <br>What is reasonably expected and what is the motor designed to do with cold weather starts with a '02 24V Cummins if not plugged in? The dealership is working towards a resolution so that must mean they feel there is a problem?<br>Also we are in a unique situation with the fact that there is a Cummins dealer right next door to the Dodge dealer. What is the policy to take my truck there for warranty work on the motor if and when the Dodge dealer can't fix my concerns?<br><br>Thank you in advance and I appreciate your help.<br><br>And Their reply was:<br>Summary: ram isb 2002 winter start zero degF <br>Solution: <br>Thanks for your email Ken.... engine should start under the conditions you describe, but there may be good reasons why it is not.<br><br>&quot;Now for the questions: <br>What is reasonably expected and what is the motor designed to do with cold weather starts with a '02 24V Cummins if not plugged in? &quot;<br><br>Depends. If the pre-heater/air heaters are working, if you use the proper viscosity oil, if the starter is cranking fine, if the batteries are up, and - finally - if the fuel is not gelled, it should start at the temperatures you describe without block heater pre-heating. We wonder about a sensor indication to the air heaters or wonder about the actual cranking RPM (function of oil viscosity and battery cold cranking amps, starter health). We are also wondering about your fuel quality. Are you using Premium Winter Blended fuels from a major commercial fuel island?<br><br>&quot;The dealership is working towards a resolution so that must mean they feel there is a problem?&quot;<br><br>Well, there's a problem if it doesn't start and should, but there may not be an engine problem. Fuel that is almost gelled (even with additives if you've got mostly #2 vs. #1 blended in) may flow adequately if the &quot;environment&quot; is warmed a bit, i.e.: if the block is preheated and the net effect is warmer fuel filter, injector lines, etc.<br><br>We must advise that it is almost impossible for us to troubleshoot engine problems by email. There are sometimes many factors that affect the determination of what is causing a certain problem or engine function. Many times there are other contributing factors that are forgotten or not mentioned that could have a direct bearing on what might have happened with an engine or component.<br><br>The person or persons on the scene are best able to compare all the facts, look at the parts or other information and determine why a particular phenomenon or engine function has occurred. Therefore, we are not in a position to make failure analysis or troubleshoot engine problems by email and suggest you continue to work withe Dodge dealer or have them consult with the nearest Cummins service provider for a more accurate assessment of the situation.<br><br>For assistance with Dodge Ram truck issues, Dodge requires a Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) for vehicle identification (i.e., model, year, build plant, etc.). Always have your VIN number available when requesting assistance with your Dodge vehicle. <br><br>When bringing a Dodge truck to a Dodge dealer for warranty service, you may also wish to verify that the service department is availing themselves of the diesel technician troubleshooting assistance that is available to Dodge dealers by way of their S.T.A.R. Hotline. Dodge dealers may call the DaimlerChrysler Hotline for technical assistance.<br><br>Customers should call Dodge Customer Service Hotline (800-992-1997) for assistance.<br><br>&quot;Also we are in a unique situation with the fact that there is a Cummins dealer right next door to the Dodge dealer. What is the policy to take my truck there for warranty work on the motor if and when the Dodge dealer can't fix my concerns?&quot;<br><br>No can do. They (Dodge) may elect to, but you cannot (and not have to pay). Dodge warrants the engines we build for them, and only they can authorize Cummins shop assistance in troubleshooting and/or repair. If, for example, they decide to cut a service order to Cummins at Rock Springs, and Cummins finds that the fuel is gelled ....that is not a warrantable failure and Cummins will charge them for the efforts, and they will charge you for both of their efforts; however, if they can't fix it and elect to seek Cummins' help they will pay Cummins and turn in a claim to Daimler-Chrysler. If you choose to go to Cummins on your own, you are free to do so; however, you then get to pay the entire amount and have no warranty compensation. That's the way it works.<br><br>You could also have a combination of factors. Zero degrees is getting &quot;cold&quot; for 15W-40 (it's five degrees below the minimum recommended temperature) and you should be using a 10W-30 mineral oil or a 5W-40 synthetic (optional, and costly) for the engine to turn over better, and to get oil to critical parts like the turbo more quickly on starting. If your oil is too thick, your fuel slightly gelled, your batteries a bit marginal and maybe the air-heaters not exact ....your engine could easily not start. Except for the air heater possible issue, not of the aforementioned are an engine problem per se. They are engine Operation &amp; Maintenance issues (proper fuels and lubes) and vehicle systems (electrical, battery) issues.<br><br>WARNING<br><br>An SAE 10W30 designation on a product is a viscosity designation only. You need API CH-4 or (see below) CI-4 Classification. The SAE viscosity designation alone does not imply that the product meets Cummins requirements. Only 10W30 oils with diesel performance credentials meeting Cummins rec's may be used in Cummins Engines if the reduced ambient temperature indicated below is observed. <br><br>Only 10W30 mineral oils or 5W-40 synthetics meeting CES 20078 (API CI-4) can be used in the ambient temperature range similar to 15W40 oils.<br><br> Recommended SAE Oil Viscosity Grades vs. Ambient Temperatures<br> <br>Oil Viscosity Season Ambient <br> Ratings Temperature Range (deg F) <br><br>5w-40 or 15w-40 All seasons Temps above +5 deg F<br>10w-30 and CI-4 &quot; &quot; -5 deg F to +115 deg F<br>10w-30 Winter Conditions -5 deg F to + 70 deg F<br> 5w-30 &quot; &quot; -15 deg F to +70 deg F<br> 0w-30 Arctic Conditions Temps below 32 deg F<br> <br>We wish you well on the resolution Ken. You might send us a quick email back when the problem is resolved, such that we can more readily help others in the same situation. .... we're ready for Spring here in Indiana, with near-record snowfall (no ski hills) and still February.<br><br>We thank you for your interest in Cummins products. Please let us know if you need assistance in locating the nearest Cummins-authorized Dealer or Distributor Service Provider. For assistance in locating a Service Provider, feel free to use Cummins North America Dealer Locator, which can be found on Cummins website: <br> http://www.cummins.com/service_locator/index.cfm <br><br>Please let us know if you have other questions and if away from your computer or have a time-critical request that needs more urgent attention, feel free to call us toll-free (from North America) at 1-800-DIESELS (343-7357). Customers may also call Cummins switchboard 1-812-377-5000 (worldwide toll call) and ask for the &quot;800-DIESELS Call Center&quot; for assistance.<br><br>Email direct: powermaster@cummins.com<br><br>Regards, <br>-- <br>Powermaster<br>Customer Assistance Center<br>Cummins, Inc.<br>Columbus, Indiana, USA<br><br>Sorry for the length but I thought that you all might want the info. So today I had the oil changed to 5w40 synthetic and verified that the dealer feels there is no mechanical reason the motor won't start. I asked if they load tested the batteries and was told there was no indication that was even an issue. So I went to Auto Zone to have them checked. Both batteries check good but one drops to 10 volts, the other stayed at 12 volt. I am considering changing from the stock 750 cold cranking battery to a 900 or 1000 cold cranking battery at a cost of $150 total. And wait to the next cold morning....It is a shame that you pay the price you do and get the kind of service this dealer puts out. Just to keep the record straight I did get a loaner car that was greatly appreciated. Just my $0.02 Ken<br><br><br><br><br>

 

Kamper, did your voltmeter drop (+10V or so) as the grid heater cycled? Sounds like its' something besides oil, considering you have an 02 with low miles. I was down hunting at Baggs (just south of you) the weekend before Christmas when it dropped to -15. My 01 started fine w/o block heater. Just waited for start light. I'm using 15w40 rotella and power service. I don't plug in here in Loveland, CO and never have had to crank for more than about two or three seconds. Last week temps have been around 0 to 5 for the lows.

 

Hi Wheezer,<br>Any time my rig started hard you could see the drain on the volt gauge from the perheater/air heater that one would think reflected the heater was at least working, I still question how well it works though. I am pretty frustrated about the whole issue. As the reply from Cummins states if you have good fuel, good batteries and thin oil you should fire. I have never had a problem if it was plugged in..also the perheater light only comes on for 5 seconds or so if plugged in. <br>I know of a guy at work that had a '01 and had similar cold weather problems and this same dealer had his truck for a month before he fixed the problem. They changed grid heater,fuel pump, and finally got into the valve train and found a bent valve before the problem was fixed. He claimed his truck would fire to -10 with only one perheater cycle. His biggest complaint after that was his fuel mileage was never better than 14 mpg running empty. After two years with the Dodge he is now running an '03 Powerstroke. Got tired of the dealers BS. Just my $0.02 Ken<br>

 

The PSD I used to have started fine down to -15 to -20. I've only had the CTD down to -15. Neither garaged or plugged in. The only times I had a problem was when glow plugs went out on the PSD. I know what you're talking about with dealer/mechanics. The first response was to switch oil. Didn't work. I ran Rotella in both. Just use the Power Service in the CTD. It seems to get a little better mileage and I'm sure it must be good for the pumps. Anyways, the oil just made the pressure come up a little quicker. Both start and run fine as long as everything is in working order.

 

Hi Everyone,<br>Me again. For those of us that are having trouble with our CTD starting I will pass on some info onto you that I have learned to date. The first and easiest issue to address is the fuel that we use. Here are some facts around diesel fuel....#2 fuel (summer blend) will stay flowable to +20 degrees. In Wyoming diesel fuel terminals will add additives (Winter Blend) to lower the flowable range to the 0 range. Usaully November through April. Also #1 fuel can be blended from a 25% and upto a 50% range to maintain flowability if the temperatures require. The blending is voluntary and is not guaranteed to be done all the time. With this winter being so mild I could not get a commitment that the blending was done 100% of the time. We have only seen two mornings of below zero that both caused me grief. Also about adding fuel additves to your tank...I was told if you just dump some in your tank with a full tank it is possible that the additive settles to the bottom of the tank and is burned off and leaves the rest of the tank to gell. So when you see temperatures at +20 and below it depends alot on your fuel source to want happens or grief you may see. I have talked to several people this winter that are seeing starting problems that have never seen in past years that were lower temperatues. Also the guys that are starting to the -15 to -20 range in past years without use of the block heater are running about 50% #1 diesel and antigel additives in their rigs, also the 5w-40 synthetic is spoken of very highly. I am currently running Premium Blue, watching my fuel much closer and waiting for the next round of artic air. Just my $0.02 Ken