2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
08-06-2003, 10:37 AM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
basically the same set-up....i beleive the injection pump was updated ( not a VP-44 edition ) as for the LP, i know it's got one, not sure if the same though :
08-06-2003, 10:47 AM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
I thought the 03 used a common rail, similar to gasser. Where the computer controls the injector pulses, not an injection pump. So basically you;d have a single fuel pump providing constant pressure in the rail. I may be wrong here since I got an 01, and haven't spentmuch time around the 03's. 
-D
-D
08-06-2003, 10:53 AM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
my step father had an 03' HO...i looked at it and was pretty positive i saw an injection pump, aaah, were probably both wrong 
........maybe an 03' guy will chime in soon
........maybe an 03' guy will chime in soon
08-06-2003, 11:14 AM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
Umm, I'm no expert, so until one shows up.....
Forget everything you know about traditional diesel injection pumps. The 03 doesn't use a rotary or plunger pump which delivers a squirt to each cylinder. It uses a common rail system where a tube like container is pressurized with fuel to around 23,000 psi. It's then metered into each cylinder via electronically actuated injectors from this common container. Using this method, the electronics can do all sorts of things the old plunger or rotary pumps couldn't do like trigger the injector nozzle multiple times during the power cycle. The slower rise time of the cylinder pressure results in less noise but more low end grunt.
By the way, if you want to hear a racket, listen an engine equipped with a VP44 pump on a very cold morning. The metallic buzzing of the pump is deafening until it warms up.
Forget everything you know about traditional diesel injection pumps. The 03 doesn't use a rotary or plunger pump which delivers a squirt to each cylinder. It uses a common rail system where a tube like container is pressurized with fuel to around 23,000 psi. It's then metered into each cylinder via electronically actuated injectors from this common container. Using this method, the electronics can do all sorts of things the old plunger or rotary pumps couldn't do like trigger the injector nozzle multiple times during the power cycle. The slower rise time of the cylinder pressure results in less noise but more low end grunt.
By the way, if you want to hear a racket, listen an engine equipped with a VP44 pump on a very cold morning. The metallic buzzing of the pump is deafening until it warms up.
08-06-2003, 12:05 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
[quote author=Commatoze link=board=4;threadid=18042;start=#msg168964 date=1060186492]
Umm, I'm no expert, so until one shows up.....
Forget everything you know about traditional diesel injection pumps. The 03 doesn't use a rotary or plunger pump which delivers a squirt to each cylinder. It uses a common rail system where a tube like container is pressurized with fuel to around 23,000 psi. It's then metered into each cylinder via electronically actuated injectors from this common container. Using this method, the electronics can do all sorts of things the old plunger or rotary pumps couldn't do like trigger the injector nozzle multiple times during the power cycle. The slower rise time of the cylinder pressure results in less noise but more low end grunt.
By the way, if you want to hear a racket, listen an engine equipped with a VP44 pump on a very cold morning. The metallic buzzing of the pump is deafening unit it warms up.
[/quote]
ALL the above is well and good - but the QUESTION is, what sort of pump PROVIDES the high pressure to the fuel rail - it sure doesn't get pressurized by magic! ;D ;D
And, of course, the NEXT question will be, what TYPE of pump provides that pressure, piston or vane, electrical or mechanically driven, and how long will IT last...
;D ;D
I wouldn't knock the older pumps TOO much - until the new ones establish a track record... ;D ;D
Umm, I'm no expert, so until one shows up.....
Forget everything you know about traditional diesel injection pumps. The 03 doesn't use a rotary or plunger pump which delivers a squirt to each cylinder. It uses a common rail system where a tube like container is pressurized with fuel to around 23,000 psi. It's then metered into each cylinder via electronically actuated injectors from this common container. Using this method, the electronics can do all sorts of things the old plunger or rotary pumps couldn't do like trigger the injector nozzle multiple times during the power cycle. The slower rise time of the cylinder pressure results in less noise but more low end grunt.
By the way, if you want to hear a racket, listen an engine equipped with a VP44 pump on a very cold morning. The metallic buzzing of the pump is deafening unit it warms up.
[/quote]
ALL the above is well and good - but the QUESTION is, what sort of pump PROVIDES the high pressure to the fuel rail - it sure doesn't get pressurized by magic! ;D ;D
And, of course, the NEXT question will be, what TYPE of pump provides that pressure, piston or vane, electrical or mechanically driven, and how long will IT last...
;D ;DI wouldn't knock the older pumps TOO much - until the new ones establish a track record... ;D ;D
08-06-2003, 12:47 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
You're right Gary, only time will tell as to the durability of this system. I've looked all over the net for the pump type and designation but haven't been able to come up with anything except that it's made by Bosch and it's mechanically driven. It's no longer referred to as an "injection pump" but a "high pressure fuel pump" . I think this is important because it indicates to me that the pump is less of a key part and more of just a component to a system.
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08-06-2003, 01:22 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
[quote author=Commatoze link=board=4;threadid=18042;start=#msg169006 date=1060192067]
You're right Gary, only time will tell as to the durability of this system. I've looked all over the net for the pump type and designation but haven't been able to come up with anything except that it's made by Bosch and it's mechanically driven. It's no longer referred to as an "injection pump" but a "high pressure fuel pump" . I think this is important because it indicates to me that the pump is less of a key part and more of just a component to a system.
[/quote]
The reason I make a point of this, is because I've read claims that the pressure pump portion of the new system STILL USES the pump portion of the VP-44 to develop main fuel rail pressure - but no longer has or needs the computerized portions of the VP-44 for timing, etc. In other words, a "modified" VP-44...
IF that is true, the weaknesses of the VP-44, which were pretty much limited to the mechanical part of the previous VP-44 MIGHT still be present, and a potential weakness in the new system.
Maybe someone with more detailed info will pop in...
You're right Gary, only time will tell as to the durability of this system. I've looked all over the net for the pump type and designation but haven't been able to come up with anything except that it's made by Bosch and it's mechanically driven. It's no longer referred to as an "injection pump" but a "high pressure fuel pump" . I think this is important because it indicates to me that the pump is less of a key part and more of just a component to a system.
[/quote]
The reason I make a point of this, is because I've read claims that the pressure pump portion of the new system STILL USES the pump portion of the VP-44 to develop main fuel rail pressure - but no longer has or needs the computerized portions of the VP-44 for timing, etc. In other words, a "modified" VP-44...
IF that is true, the weaknesses of the VP-44, which were pretty much limited to the mechanical part of the previous VP-44 MIGHT still be present, and a potential weakness in the new system.
Maybe someone with more detailed info will pop in...
08-06-2003, 03:32 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
[quote author=Jamie Attridge link=board=4;threadid=18042;start=0#msg169034 date=1060197256]
I think the 03 uses a CP3 pump. Rod at wildcatdiesel.com knows forsure though!
[/quote]
SORRY, that doesn't tell me any more than if it was a "XYZ" pump - what IS a "CP3 pump", any general description of construction available? ??? ???
I think the 03 uses a CP3 pump. Rod at wildcatdiesel.com knows forsure though!
[/quote]
SORRY, that doesn't tell me any more than if it was a "XYZ" pump - what IS a "CP3 pump", any general description of construction available? ??? ???
08-06-2003, 04:03 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
The biggest change is the new High Pressure Common Rail (HPCR) fuel system. Designed and manufactured by Bosch it uses the CP3.3 injection pump running at a rail pressure of 23,200 psi (1600 bar) on the high output engine. This is the primary change that allowed a reduction of 8-10 db of noise along with a block redesign to help keep sound levels down. Additionally, the ability to better control injection timing along with pilot injection provides an extended rpm peak torque band over previous engines (200 rpm lower and higher). The lift/supply pump is located on the side of the motor right next to the fuel filter and is an all new design supplied by Federal-Mogul.
08-06-2003, 04:30 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
(SIGH!)
I seem to be having a REAL PROBLEM making myself understood here... : :
I don't NEED a description of how the common rail system works - I already KNOW a lift pump provides basic fuel flow to a high pressure pump to supply the rail, I already KNOW that pump is referred to as a "CP3"
Now HERE is what I *DON'T KNOW*, and have asked TWICE...
What type of pump IS the CP3, a piston pump? a vane pump? is it based in ANY way or related in any way in construction or components to the previous VP-44?
THAT is the question...
I seem to be having a REAL PROBLEM making myself understood here... :
:I don't NEED a description of how the common rail system works - I already KNOW a lift pump provides basic fuel flow to a high pressure pump to supply the rail, I already KNOW that pump is referred to as a "CP3"
Now HERE is what I *DON'T KNOW*, and have asked TWICE...
What type of pump IS the CP3, a piston pump? a vane pump? is it based in ANY way or related in any way in construction or components to the previous VP-44?
THAT is the question...
08-06-2003, 04:49 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
It's a fuel pump. Honestly, though, I don't know. Do a search in the general discussion forum. I remember reading something a while ago about the new CP3 pump. It gave a lot of info.
Honestly, though, I don't know. Do a search in the general discussion forum. I remember reading something a while ago about the new CP3 pump. It gave a lot of info.
08-06-2003, 06:36 PM
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Re:2002 and Below have Lift pump VP44 what does 2003 have
AH well, I guess accurate info will eventually surface - it took quite while to get the more detailed info on the VP-44 I wanted - and probably will be true of the CP3 as well - lot's of guys here and over in the TDR talk about it in vague terms - but no one seems knowledgeable enough to provide reasonably detailed info on what it actually consists of or how it works - or how similar it might be in design to the mechanical portion of the VP-44 - and THAT is what I am particularly interested in... ??? ??? ???