downhome

I have been working on getting the cooling system cleaned out. I ran a couple bottles of Prestone Super Radiator Cleaner for the required time (3 - 6 hrs, normal driving) and was not impressed. I still have substantial (visible and large) scale, calcium, lime... whatever these deposits are called at the end of the cooling tubes in my radiator. I assume there is build up in the tubes as well. The radiator cleaner was supposed to remove these and didn't. I was also not impressed with the amount of debris removed during back flushing. The water was mostly clear.

I'm not going to use the Prestone Super Flush... yet. That is the flush that takes 15 minutes vs. 3 - 6 hrs for the Radiator Cleaner. Ran across some "use at your own risk" sort of warnings on that. Some debate as to how caustic it is.

So, going to try a gallon of white distilled vinegar. Run at operating temp for 20 mins or so. Let it sit for several hours. Run it again. Let it cool, drain and flush. Will let you all know how it works.

Ran across some people using Coca Cola in the radiator to clean it up as well. Even some people trying diluted Muriatic acid (very caustic).

All things are done at your own risk. And do some research. I don't recommend anything. But will let you know how the vinegar works. Any comments or ideas on how to really get things cleaned out are appreciated.

maybe368

This is why I run 100% anti-freeze, no corrosion in my cooling system. I am not trying to provoke an argument, so please stifle when thinking of telling me all the possible damage I might be doing, I'll go with my 25-30 years of experience with it...Mark

DPFservice

Sounds like that scale is what is holding your radiator together. I took mine in to a shop to get rodded and that is what the tech told me. I guess 20 years of service from the original radiator, it was time for a new one from Napa.

Jim Lane

The first thing you want to do is make sure you are looking at calcium deposits and not solder bloom, if it is indeed solder bloom all you will be doing is causing a leak.

Solder bloom is a reaction between the brass tanks, headers, the copper core, and the solder and is caused by the degradation of rust and leak inhibitors in antifreeze. (yes not replacing your antifreeze regularly) if not replaced every year or two the alkalinity should be tested using a test strip to check the ph. of the mixture.

Also make sure your engine is grounded properly, add a heavy cable from the engine block to the battery and frame, stray current will flow through the coolant into the radiator and cause electrolysis eroding away the radiator from the inside out.

This is what Solder Bloom looks like.



http://www.villa-automotive.com/radiator.htm

Read Causes Of Radiator Failure.
To understand about why the ph. of the antifreeze is important.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/radiator_repair.htm

I have just installed a new 3-row custom built radiator on my truck after it finally started to leak, factory is only a 2-row.

After I drained all of the new coolant into a pan and installed the new 3-row radiator I refilled the system with what I had recovered and It took 1 additional gallon of distilled water to fill it to the neck.

Jim

downhome

Thank you very much for the info. I didn't know any of that, so was doing this cooling system flush in ignorance.

The deposits at the end of my cooling tubes look like this...
http://www.villa-automotive.com/solderbloom.html

...or this...
http://www.villa-automotive.com/electro.html

I ran the vinegar, lots of copper has come out of the cooling system. Copper colored water, not chunks. I have not ran the truck yet. Don't know if it is going to spring any leaks, ruin the water pump, etc. So will have to post again later down the line to update.

The deposits at the end of the rows are largely still there. They are washing off now after running the vinegar. That is what I am doing right now, trying to wash and flush as much of those deposits as I can out with the hose. They seem to be coming loose fairly easy, so the vinegar may have helped in that regard.

The ground cable at the battery has been loose for two years because I disconnect it so much. Almost daily. So much easier to grab it and pop it off then having it tight. So that may be a culprit.

The coolant I have removed during this flush is two years old. But that may have gone bad as well.

ANG012

I cleaned mine with lime-a-way. Remove the radiator and lay it on the ground fill it with lime-a-way let it set. Give it about 30 minutes drain it out and check it out. Worked go on mine no leaks.

downhome

Thanks for the info. Lime-a-way is something like 46% hydrochloric acid. If I get so frustrated I want to nuke it, I'll try it.

One thing I figured out, you have to disconnect the upper radiator hose and put the radiator cap on to do a true flush on these radiators ('91.5 - '93 ?). The lower radiator hose is directly underneath the fill cap, so the water just flows straight up and out if you don't. Cap on, upper hose off and it flows bottom left corner to upper right thru the cooling tubes... much better.

Getting a bunch of chunks out of it this way.

downhome

Been sometime now. The radiator cleaned up nicely. Had to run a box of baking soda mixed with a couple gallons distilled water to neutralize the vinegar. The copper colored water was in fact rust colored water judging by the way it stained the driveway.

So, conclusion, it works. The ends of my tubes are clean now. Nothing sprang a leak. Am currently running a couple bottles of Prestone treatment, the kind that supposedly prevents rust and lubes the water pump, and Prestone antifreeze.

And the battery cables are tight.

tech-eh

sooo its been few months how is the rad ?

NJTman

Interesting idea..... vinegar. Hmmm.

You used the stuff, and even through the heater core, no leaks ? Wow, something to think about.

Really thought the Limeaway was cool idea, but I'll have to look into that a little more.


My testing of the old fluid that I dumped out of the truck showed a 60% coolant to water ratio, with a PH of 8.0, which according to what I've read, is too low.

Extensive testing has shown that a coolant pH below 8.3 pH is not acceptable for use in engines due to its corrosive nature. The correct pH value should be maintained between 9.5 - 10.0 pH. Below 9.0 pH it is advisable to flush the cooling system and refill with a new coolant solution.

http://www.eutechinst.com/techtips/tech-tips10.htm

Even though I was dumping the fluid, I was curious to see how this "really green and clean looking fluid" actually was, and I saved just enough to test it.

T.

downhome

Yes, through the heater core with the vinegar. Ran the heater on high while the vinegar was in there.

Just went out and looked, thing looks very clean. The cooling tube ends look pristine.

I'm running two bottles of Prestone 100% and two bottles of the Prestone WP conditioner/cooling system corrosion prevent, rest distilled water. It seems to be running just slightly hotter, so small hard to tell on the gauge. But I'm running a high percentage of anti-freeze vs. water from what I remember. It didn't take much distilled after dumping the other stuff in.

I was running the negative battery cable loose for ease of removal. That most likely spurred the corrosion build up. It's on there tight now.

Have to see if I can't test the pH and water/coolant ratio. That's good to know about the pH.

downhome

For some reason my truck is running 50% cooler than it has this time of year with daytime spring temps approaching 100 degrees in the desert. It usually is hitting or is just short of the second hash on the stock dash gauge and the radiator fan clutch would be intermittently engaging by now.

Now it runs halfway between the first two hashes, huge difference.

Have concluded that my radiator is more efficient. Probably running with the two bottles of Prestone WP conditioner for this long have really helped to clean it up combined with a well grounded engine block. The interior of the radiator appears pristine.

Happiness is a cool engine. In the desert anyway.

j_martin

Clean makes a big difference. The coolant has to contact the inside of the metal tubes to transfer heat, and it also has to be able to get through the tubes.

The original slight warming you saw was probably just the thermostat being freed of crap and working right for a change, instead of slightly leaking.

Vinegar is about 5% acetic acid, a fairly strong acid.
Lime-away, as well as most "cleaners" have a hydrochloric acid (HCL) base. Might as well just use dilute hydrochloric acid. 8 oz of concentrate, diluted to fill the system would be plenty. It's a cheap pool maintenance and brick cleaning chemical available at yer hardware store.

HCL will not attack copper with this caveat. If there's a strong oxidizer present, like a nitrate, it will. I put printed circuit boards into HCL and nothing happens. Add a few drops of concentrated hydrogen peroxide, and the solution eats the copper with a great appetite. HCL goes after any carbonate (lime) and gets under it, pretty much knocking all the crud off. It's the chemical used to maintain high flow immersed coil water heaters found in boilers. Too much could erode the solder enough to cause a leak. Ordinary baking soda will neutralize any acid left in the system after a rinse.

downhome

That's some good info, thank you.

It took some time to get the cooling system messed up like that. The build up and clogged tubes took months. It's neat how the cooling system gets cleaner over a few months once it's tuned up.

Should probably flush it again, see if all those deposits dissolved... or are floating around in there.

1993 250bluebal

How much vinegar pre gal. of water is needed?