A question for those running a LOT of IP timing advance.
Thread Starter
1st Generation Admin
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,601
Likes: 118
From: Buies Creek, NC
I know when I had my pump advanced pretty far, when it was cold it would rattle pretty good. So I retarded it just enough to where it didn't rattle really bad when cold.
After I retarded the timing I noticed that the turbo seemed to spool a little faster also. Sounds right as there's now more heat available to power the turbine.
Now today I just got my "mess" started with my custom modified pump. The modified part that pertains to this thread is the timing piston that is now 2mm shorter on the retarded side. Thus I advanced the pump drive gear 1 tooth and set the pump just about stock to the case. All I've done so far is get it started but it starts nice and is very smooth. So I'm hoping that once its going I'll have more dynamic timing advance than before, not sure how much but we'll see.
Aaron
After I retarded the timing I noticed that the turbo seemed to spool a little faster also. Sounds right as there's now more heat available to power the turbine.
Now today I just got my "mess" started with my custom modified pump. The modified part that pertains to this thread is the timing piston that is now 2mm shorter on the retarded side. Thus I advanced the pump drive gear 1 tooth and set the pump just about stock to the case. All I've done so far is get it started but it starts nice and is very smooth. So I'm hoping that once its going I'll have more dynamic timing advance than before, not sure how much but we'll see.
Aaron
I've not been dwelling on the R&D over at 1stGen (waiting for you guys to sort and test it), so I'm not as well versed with the pump's innards as I'd like just yet.
Thread Starter
1st Generation Admin
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,601
Likes: 118
From: Buies Creek, NC
Speaking of injection timing . . .. .
In reviewing some images unrelated (kinda), I noticed what I see as a flame propagation pattern on the piston (Five dark areas around the edge of the bowl).
- Would this be indicative of a less than ideal start if injection timing? (This is with 2.00mm lift running PDR 190s including the PDR supplied injector washers).
- Would thinner injector washers help in putting more fuel in the bowl?
- Could this in fact be an ATDC (After Top Dead Center) issue possibly as a result of the injection pump being maxed fuel delivery wise?
All the above is assuming we want all the fuel injected into the pistons bowl.
What'chawl reckon?
And what do you suppose about the pitting around the perimeter of the piston?
In reviewing some images unrelated (kinda), I noticed what I see as a flame propagation pattern on the piston (Five dark areas around the edge of the bowl).
- Would this be indicative of a less than ideal start if injection timing? (This is with 2.00mm lift running PDR 190s including the PDR supplied injector washers).
- Would thinner injector washers help in putting more fuel in the bowl?
- Could this in fact be an ATDC (After Top Dead Center) issue possibly as a result of the injection pump being maxed fuel delivery wise?
All the above is assuming we want all the fuel injected into the pistons bowl.
What'chawl reckon?
And what do you suppose about the pitting around the perimeter of the piston?
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,053
Likes: 135
From: Tijeras, New Mexico, 7,000ft up
I don't understand why they don't aim the holes towards the bowl more. I know with POD's you have to use the thinest washers you can get to keep the spray pattern down.
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,867
Likes: 0
From: Golden, Colorado
Speaking of injection timing . . .. .
In reviewing some images unrelated (kinda), I noticed what I see as a flame propagation pattern on the piston (Five dark areas around the edge of the bowl).
- Would this be indicative of a less than ideal start if injection timing? (This is with 2.00mm lift running PDR 190s including the PDR supplied injector washers).
- Would thinner injector washers help in putting more fuel in the bowl?
- Could this in fact be an ATDC (After Top Dead Center) issue possibly as a result of the injection pump being maxed fuel delivery wise?
All the above is assuming we want all the fuel injected into the pistons bowl.
What'chawl reckon?
And what do you suppose about the pitting around the perimeter of the piston?
In reviewing some images unrelated (kinda), I noticed what I see as a flame propagation pattern on the piston (Five dark areas around the edge of the bowl).
- Would this be indicative of a less than ideal start if injection timing? (This is with 2.00mm lift running PDR 190s including the PDR supplied injector washers).
- Would thinner injector washers help in putting more fuel in the bowl?
- Could this in fact be an ATDC (After Top Dead Center) issue possibly as a result of the injection pump being maxed fuel delivery wise?
All the above is assuming we want all the fuel injected into the pistons bowl.
What'chawl reckon?
And what do you suppose about the pitting around the perimeter of the piston?
So to answer one of your questions, with advanced timing thinner washers should get the spray of fuel more into the bowl.
Thread Starter
1st Generation Admin
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,601
Likes: 118
From: Buies Creek, NC
I'm not sure I can definitely answer all your questions, but I will say this. I have the Bosch 190 injectors also and when I first installed them I used washers that were I believe .060" thick. I recently changed them out to the thinnest at about .020" thick and it really made the truck run better. IMO. It seemed to spool quicker and smoke a little less.
So to answer one of your questions, with advanced timing thinner washers should get the spray of fuel more into the bowl.
So to answer one of your questions, with advanced timing thinner washers should get the spray of fuel more into the bowl.
alwaysonDTR
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,551
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From: Keizer, oregon
if i could get more timeing advance out of the ksb plunger system, what would that do for me? more power at high rpm or better mileage?
i have some ideas on how to do it but haven't quite figured out the hard answer on why to do it.
i have some ideas on how to do it but haven't quite figured out the hard answer on why to do it.
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,053
Likes: 135
From: Tijeras, New Mexico, 7,000ft up
THe KSB only gives you more timing when cold, but it can't provide any more timing that the full amount that the mechanical advance gives you. In other words, Max advance is max advance, with or without the KSB.
alwaysonDTR
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,551
Likes: 0
From: Keizer, oregon
how does the internal advance work?
i thought it moved the plunger "part 31" in this https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...d.php?t=231863
toward the spring which rotates the rooler ring for more advance?
i thought it moved the plunger "part 31" in this https://www.dieseltruckresource.com/...d.php?t=231863
toward the spring which rotates the rooler ring for more advance?
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,867
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From: Golden, Colorado
[QUOTE=Alwaysworking;2435525]how does the internal advance work?
The kSB doesn't physically move part 31, the timing advance piston, but it increases case pressure which in turn increases timing. So at rest the spring forces the piston towards the engine, then as case pressure increases this forces the piston away from the engine, turning the roller ring, thus increasing timing.
If you want to gain more dynamic timing control, mill 2mm off of the retarded side of the piston, which would be the side closest to the engine. This will give you more dynamic timing advance.
Make sense?
Aaron
The kSB doesn't physically move part 31, the timing advance piston, but it increases case pressure which in turn increases timing. So at rest the spring forces the piston towards the engine, then as case pressure increases this forces the piston away from the engine, turning the roller ring, thus increasing timing.
If you want to gain more dynamic timing control, mill 2mm off of the retarded side of the piston, which would be the side closest to the engine. This will give you more dynamic timing advance.
Make sense?
Aaron
Registered User
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4,053
Likes: 135
From: Tijeras, New Mexico, 7,000ft up
[quote=apwatson50;2435547]
Well said.
I want to shave 2mm off the piston (al la Pastor Bob, RIP) but I'm hesitant to tear the pump apart that much to get to it... chicken really.
how does the internal advance work?
The kSB doesn't physically move part 31, the timing advance piston, but it increases case pressure which in turn increases timing. So at rest the spring forces the piston towards the engine, then as case pressure increases this forces the piston away from the engine, turning the roller ring, thus increasing timing.
If you want to gain more dynamic timing control, mill 2mm off of the retarded side of the piston, which would be the side closest to the engine. This will give you more dynamic timing advance.
Make sense?
Aaron
The kSB doesn't physically move part 31, the timing advance piston, but it increases case pressure which in turn increases timing. So at rest the spring forces the piston towards the engine, then as case pressure increases this forces the piston away from the engine, turning the roller ring, thus increasing timing.
If you want to gain more dynamic timing control, mill 2mm off of the retarded side of the piston, which would be the side closest to the engine. This will give you more dynamic timing advance.
Make sense?
Aaron
I want to shave 2mm off the piston (al la Pastor Bob, RIP) but I'm hesitant to tear the pump apart that much to get to it... chicken really.
alwaysonDTR
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,551
Likes: 0
From: Keizer, oregon
[QUOTE=apwatson50;2435547]
how much more will it give me?
why not take off the other side ? isn't that the way it moves when advanceing the timeing?
how does the internal advance work?
The kSB doesn't physically move part 31, the timing advance piston, but it increases case pressure which in turn increases timing. So at rest the spring forces the piston towards the engine, then as case pressure increases this forces the piston away from the engine, turning the roller ring, thus increasing timing.
If you want to gain more dynamic timing control, mill 2mm off of the retarded side of the piston, which would be the side closest to the engine. This will give you more dynamic timing advance.
Make sense?
Aaron
The kSB doesn't physically move part 31, the timing advance piston, but it increases case pressure which in turn increases timing. So at rest the spring forces the piston towards the engine, then as case pressure increases this forces the piston away from the engine, turning the roller ring, thus increasing timing.
If you want to gain more dynamic timing control, mill 2mm off of the retarded side of the piston, which would be the side closest to the engine. This will give you more dynamic timing advance.
Make sense?
Aaron
how much more will it give me?
why not take off the other side ? isn't that the way it moves when advanceing the timeing?
