Hey folks!

I've been lurking in your forums off and on for a number of years and have found it most helpful. I've often imagined the pull available with some of the mods one can do.


Anyhoot, I've got a dilemma . . . . . sorta.


The short story is: I'm all of the sudden, under heavy throttle, hearing what I think is the compressors impeller, rubbing against its housing.

>LONG READ AHEAD<


Here's my mess: http://folding.amdmbpond.com/BC'sMess/93WD250.jpg

1993 Dodge WD250 ClubCab w/8' bed (208K miles/7800# w/a half tank of fuel)
PB, PS, Tilt wheel, AC.
160hp/400 ft-lbs factory inter-cooled Cummins w/rotary injection pump.
3-speed automatic trans w/overdrive and NP-205 transfer-case.
Dana 70 rear, and Dana 60 front axles (370)
CenterLine 16x12 rims w/larger BF Goodrich AT tires (I can't remember the numbers).

I'm the original owner and had it custom ordered in early December 1993. We received it in early March of 1994.

I've kept the fluids changed and the valves/bands adjusted.

Through the years, I've done the following mods (good and bad);

* Changed the stock exhaust to 3.5" from the TOP back. I used the big Flowmaster 4 chamber muffler. At the time, I thought leaving the stock TOP in place was a good idea to prevent over-boost (OOPS!). I couldn't afford a full dress exhaust kit for that truck and ended up using a more common universal 3.5" kit that was from the muffler back. I made the funky ClubCab pipe (from TOP to muffler) from 3.5" EMT conduit (Gimme a break. I had a piece of EMT, access to a hydraulic pipe-bender, and it works great!) That's been about 7 years ago.

* Replaced the stock air filter with a K&N model. I'm well aware of the BHAF concept and went to work on the stock unit (I'm handy with sheet-metal and tin-snips). In a nut shell, I removed the stock air horn and hollowed things out so I could install what amounts to a much larger version of the inverse. A big funnel so to speak. In my mind it works well as it allowed me to keep the same filter location/housing,etc, with much improved airflow.

* I wrestled with what to do with the charge air preheater. I opted to leave it, but I did pull it off long enough to do some porting (sorta) and opened it up on either side of the elements. I was able open it a substantial degree in that area. It looked like a good idea anyway.

* I didn't care for the large amount of rear axle twist in my mess so I made what amounts to an axle location device that acts as a traction bar thing. Works good (I'll post a pic link tomorrow).

* Installed a 1.5" body lift I made from 3" delron bar stock cut into pucks. (Only 1.5" as I didn't want to see the rough sheet-metal hidden by the front bumper).

* I made the show roll and nerd bards from 3" EMT conduit. The roll bar is made so it actually plugs into the stock bed stake pockets, and can easily be removed if need be. The light bar is made with a trailer plug and can be unplugged when removing the roll-bar assembly.

* In the not too distant past, I became road-kill on the information highway, and found you guys.

. . . . . . . and went pretty much straight to tweaking the fuel injector.

With all that and time, I've managed to tear the center out of the flex-plate (I see there's a Heavy-Duty model available now), break a tooth off the rear pinion gear, and ruin two sets of perfectly good rear tires, spinning the rim in the tires bead. (At the time, I was running Eaton steel 16.5" rims. The 16.5" rim/bead interface sucks!)



So here I am.

I need a new turbo to start. That funky exhaust center pipe I made won't be long rusting through. Since I need a new turbo, going to a waste-gated model would eliminate a bunch of the original turbo-lag.


And I do enjoy smoking the kids driving their Dads Suburban at stop lights.


Well, things have changed since I bought the truck, namely, the kids have grown up, and moved out.

I have pocket change.



I know that from the info available here, one can make a monster out of my mess. But I can't really afford all that comes with it. Further, I'm sorta screwed as my trucks age is making it most difficult to find after-market performance products. Not like when it was new anyway.
And that's where the Gail Banks PowerPack kit gets my attention. It pretty much has all the parts to repair/upgrade my mess. In print, the intercooler out performs the stock edition in one fashion or another.
Now I have lurked in the threads here. I have read some of the gripes, and blessings of the kit. It is expensive ($2300 from what I see so far on-line), but it does include all that make it seem a complete kit. I realize it has limited capabilities as compared to what's now available. I also know a chains only as strong as its weakest link. I don't really need to blow the trans or twist a drive shaft in two.

Frankly, the truck hauls my butt exclusively. Perhaps a once in a blue moons half ton load of sand, or my Dad's 23' outboard. But it's usually back and forth to work.


What advice have you good folks to offer?

Is there a better way to go? Since I've just heard the scraping in the last week, I'm only now beginning to research things. (That, and saving up the funds)


The fuel injector's leaking at the throttle shaft, and I see that as a flag it'll be next. The 230hp replacement looks interesting. That and bigger injectors. But that's later.



What do you folks think? Thanks in advance for your time.

BC

 

Just send your turbo in for a rebuild. While there, have it machined for an HX-40 wheel and get a 16cm housing put on. Money was tight when mine needed doing, so I didn't get the wheel and am now kicking myself. I think that's probably about the best bang for your buck for useable power, at least until you get a $4000 tranny, etc....

 

If the compressor wheel is rubbing on the housing...STOP driving it and get it fixed.
Redleg has some good suggestions....no sense leaving it stock at this point. Gotta put in a new wheel...upgrade.
Jay

 

BC847,

Nice truck! And, welcome to the site! Watch that turbo--you don't want your engine on a diet of metal shavings

greg

 

Have you pulled off the intake hose and checked to see what the side to side play is like or if there is any visible damage?

Can you hear it while it's in park and throttling the engine from under the hood?

Does the sound stay synced with engine speed? If it does, it may be something else like the tensioner or something along those lines.

Den

 

Thanks for the replies folks.




If one were to look straight into the compressors inlet, one can see that the shaft can be moved what looks like a good 1/16" left to right. I can hear the turbo working under light loads, and it sounds normal at that point. It's when I get down on it and the boost starts coming on strong that I hear a high pitched whizzing (ragged). The sound it makes is independent of crankshaft speed.

I've checked the plumbing flex boot things for cuts or tears, can't find anything.

Over the last year, the stock fan blade decided to shred, and took the radiator with it. So that's all good at this point. Not too long after that, the drive belt multiplied. While messing with that, I found that the water pump had very worn bearings (no leaks though). Replaced all that. So I don't know of a problem there.

While I understand that there's gonna be an allowable amount of play in the turbos bearings, mine presents with a sizable amount.





Can anyone vouch for any real performance gains with the Banks inter-cooler?

 

If you can't make the impeller touch the housing it's still OK. Boost leaks can make some funny noises. You should pressure test the system before condemning the turbo, a visual check on the boots is not enough to rule out a leak elsewhere.

There is nothing to be gained with the Banks kit. You can make more power for way less money. The stock intercooler is fine for any truck that's street driveable. Keep in mind that fuel = power. Air allows you to use the power by keeping EGT under control.

Leaking at the throttle shaft is common and can be fixed pretty cheaply by a pump shop. There's no need for a complete rebuild, just throttle shaft bushings.

 

Again, THANKS for the replies.

I gotta do some digging around to see if I can catch what ever it is red-handed.


Need to do more homework before spending any money.

Other than the general guidelines stickied here (and other places) . . . . . . . .how do I word this? . . . . . . . . .

I guess I need to decide how fast I want to go huh?


I realize all the boost in the world does squat without additional fuel.


16, 14, 12cm exhaust housing, the latter two are waste-gated? Each good for an additional 3 or 4 psi? That Banks inter-cooler sound neat.



Can somebody point me to a link that would show me how to time a rotary pump?

Before I forget . . . I don't mind going into the valve body of the trans. Can somebody recommend a worthwhile tweak kit? I'm thinking it's a lot like those one can get for cars (alters shift points and/or line pressures).


The injector pump . . . . I'm seeing stuff about altering the governor. I'm assuming this relates to the high speed.
Power Pin . . . . is this a variation of the existing pins profile? Different injection rates, and timing?

I'm assuming I can find on the truck/on-line, info on the injectors that would tell me what I have (as a baseline) and then compare those to what's available on-line. I'm thinking conservatively at the moment.

Gotta keep the trans in mind.


Can anybody point me to a thread where one went from stock as I to a complete job . . . . . .. . I know, I know . . . . . Use the SEARCH feature . . . . . .



I'm thinking in type . . . . . .bear with me . . . . ..



I'm gonna do more home work . . . . .

Frankly, . . . . . . when I told the wife I thought the trucks turbo was scraping and we could end up paying two or three grand fixing it (referring to the Banks kit as reference), she replied excitedly something about trucking. I guess she's looking forward to an improvement. I couldn't hear her clearly, I was outside, she was in. So I guess I'm working with that figure as a budget.

Anyhoot, I need to figure out what the noise is, and go from there. Gimme a day or two.

Thanks,

BC

 

Oooooo.... that turbo issue is giving me a headache...not good BC... keep in mind if it is scuffing (only scuffing mind you) you are sending shavings into the charge air system and eventually into the cylinders....heaven help you if the turbo lets go "at boost"...ugly bud....ugly !!!

BTW, were are you located??? Just curious..

You can get a good aftermarket IC that is better than a new stock unit and a fair bit less than the Banks... who by the way make a great product that has excellent fit and finish...you do pay a premium for the name and the history though.

pastor bob....

 

my two cents, try removing the fan belt and seeing if it still makes the noise, if its the turbo it wont quit but as was said earlier may be a idler wheel , alternator or a number of things, but the belt will elimanate these, as pastor bob said it will be ugly if it shreds under WOT .

 

When you check the impeller to see if it's hitting the housing, pull it forward with your fingers...that's the way it gets loaded axially under power.
If it can move +/- 1/16 inch radially it needs to be rebuilt.

Mine was making the noises you describe...and the compressor was hitting the housing.
I could not rebuild it because there was too much damage due to the excessive axial play. I consider myself lucky that I didn't grenade the engine because of all the aluminum dust it must have injecsted.
So I repeat...stop driving it and check it out. Learn from my "almost" mistake.
Jay

 

The 14 and 12 cm housings are available in wastegated and non-wastegated versions.
Not that I know of. Most of us just loosen the pump and rotate the top towards the engine. Make a mark before you start and rotate it about 1/8 inch. Seems to work pretty well. The top nut you'll need a long 1/4" extension and a 13mm socket, the bottom nut needs an "S" shaped 13 mm wrench ($10 for a set at Harbor Freight) or something similar. Don't forget the 10 mm bolt on the pump suport bracket. Take the banjo bolt out of the AFC tube, too.
Yep. There's a replacement governor spring that gives you about 500 extra RPM before the truck defuels. This can be used for getting big speeding tickets in 4th, or for towing big trailers up steep hills at 70 mph in 3rd.
Yes.
It changes when the fuel is added under boost, and also allows more to be injected. Timing is not affected.
Wee little tiny ones.

 

Thanks for the very detailed responses folks.

When talking about 12, 14, 16 cm2 turbos, we're referring to the inlet side of the turbines housing (From the exhaust manifold) . . . .. right?

The 12cm would have faster spool-up at lower crankshaft speeds as the smaller area would result in a higher velocity jet impinging on the turbine? This would be at the expense of mega-boost at higher crankshaft speeds as it (the 12cm) becomes a restriction?

At the other end of the scale, the 16cm would be slow/lazy spooling-up at low crankshaft speeds as the 16cm would have a much lower gas velocity? However, it would perform much better at higher crankshaft speeds as then you'd have enough exhaust gases to spool it?

Is that right?


Waste-gated vs non-waste-gated . . . . . . . . a waste-gated would have the ability to limit peak boost by way of dumping a portion of the exhaust gases. wouldn't it also have the added benefit of quicker spool-up at low crankshaft speed. Isn't this all sorta done with a smaller XXcm port?


Thinking in type again . . . . .


So with a mild engine build (w/auto-trans), a 12cm2 waste-gated would be ideal? Albeit, more expensive than the non-gated?

In the same vein, would the stock, non-inter-cooled injectors be ideal in this same setting?




Before I get too far ahead of myself, for the money, what would you guys recommend in the way of a tachometer, pyrometer, boost gage? I'm not really into glowing neon lights with them, just a set that's reliable and accurate. Speaking of tachs, wouldn't my mess require the tach that connects to my alternator, or am I thinking of something else?

 

#1---the 12 or 16 referrs to the exhaust side the lower numbers spool faster, butbelow a 16 might want to cosider a wastegated version or opt for a hybred turbo as in the hx-35, and your truck came with an 18 or a 21, a 16 would be a vast improvement.

#2---your truck has a wiring harness for a tach, i believe its under the steering coluhm on the left side, as for gauges thats personal preferance, but absalutes are a EGT and a tranny temp on auto's, i also have a boost gauge, it doesnt do much but its fun to watch.

 

BC847:
You are correct in your logic, except for 1 detail. You can get a cheap W/G housing by buying a 12cm housing from a 94-97 or 98 12v. The early 2nd gens have the right otlet configuration to attach to your downpipe. You will have to shorten your downpipe about 1 1/2" to allow for the added length of the wastegate.