Lightman

while that's a practical assessment , lets face it, we dont all buy trucks specifically because we 'need' them...

I dont see why the hemi is 'better for short trips' and I dont think its any better for unplugged cold startups in most areas...the diesel will start just fine at -10F without being plugged, and most of the continental US doesnt reach those temps ever...canada may be a different story. The other side of the coin OUTSIDE of towing is that diesels simply last longer....most gas engines if worked at all, are done at 100k, when the cummins is just getting broken in..

kayjh

[quote author=Lightman link=board=20;threadid=20509;start=15#msg193094 date=1065381723]
while that's a practical assessment , lets face it, we dont all buy trucks specifically because we 'need' them...

I dont see why the hemi is 'better for short trips' and I dont think its any better for unplugged cold startups in most areas...the diesel will start just fine at -10F without being plugged, and most of the continental US doesnt reach those temps ever...canada may be a different story. The other side of the coin OUTSIDE of towing is that diesels simply last longer....most gas engines if worked at all, are done at 100k, when the cummins is just getting broken in..
[/quote]

Lightman,

In my brief period of ownership of a Cummins diesel, I can see that operating a diesel entails extra procedure and maintenance. When I hop in my car, I turn the key and go. When I hop into my 2500, I turn the key to on, wait for the light to go out and fire it up. Then, depending on outside temperature, I'll let it idle for a minute or two and pull away slowly keeping rpm below 1200 for the first few minutes (the manual recommends all of the above warm up procedures).

With my diesel, as we head into fall in Canada, I am noticing the "wait to start" period has gotten a bit longer and the "clatter" remains longer when driving at 1,200 rpm to warm up. I've read other posts talking about the requirements for winter fuel, battery blankets, block heaters and water draining from the fuel. In addition, with short trips, oil change intervals are reduced to 7,500 miles.

Perhaps Robo doesn't live in the colder climates or drives further to work each day. Most of the posts I've read suggest that short trips are hard on the diesel because unless it is worked hard, it never reaches normal operating temperature in a short distance.

I can't agree with your view on the life of a gas engine that is worked hard. We have operated Ram vans in our company fleet for 20 years. We purchase 3500's with a 5.2L/auto and operate them with a daily payload of 2500 lbs+ 5 days a week. Our Vans average 35,000 - 50,000km/year (21,000 - 30,000 miles/year) and we retire them when they have a maximum of 250,000km (150,000 miles) on them. At this point they are 5 -7 years old. I have yet to see an engine failure in any of these vans. We retire them due to the repairs required to almost every other part of the vehicle: steering, brakes (calipers, etc.), wheel bearings, ball joints, suspension weakening and the occassional automatic transmission.

In my humble opinion, if the Hemi follows other Dodge engines, Robo will be looking for a new truck long before the Hemi quits.

The point of my post was to provide an impartial opinon to robo who is trying to decide between the two vehicles. I am partial to the Cummins as I feel it is more appropriate for my towing needs. It is actually more than I need, but I kind of like that.

As I was driving my new truck home from the dealership 2 weeks ago, I was bouncing over some of the ruts and potholes in the road and was wondering whether it was all worth it. The 1500 Hemi will easily pull a 7,000lb trailer and provide a much more comfortable ride. It has an independent front suspension so it steers more precisely and has a tighter turning radius making it easier to manouver in traffic and daily commutes. It starts and goes without any warmup and will easily start in extreme cold weather conditions (again, perhaps robo doesn't care). While doing all this, it clearly gets poorer fuel mileage, but primarily when towing.

I love my Cummins and realize that it is the best tool for my purpose. If robo pulls infrequently and for short distances the negative of poor fuel mileage will be minimized. If he pulls for long distances (frequently) the Cummins is probably the best choice for him. If he wants to have the best tow vehicle in the DC lineup whether he needs it or not and doesn't mind giving up some comfort, extra maintenance expense and the initial increase in purchase cost, I'd agree with you and steer him to the diesel.

Just my .02 worth.

TON4FUN

Yeah but pulling with a 1/2 ton really stinks in terms of drivablility. I feel more comfortable pulling with a 3/4 ton or 1 ton suspension over a wimpy 1/2 ton suspension any day, even 7000 lbs. I got rid of my 02 Ram 1/2 for that very reason. Motor aside, suspension when pulling makes the world of difference as well. Something else to throw in the pot of arguments. Another is brakes, the 1/2 ton brakes won't even come close to the 3/4 or 1 ton system. Gotta have brakes when towing that trailer. When it comes down to it money and all its all a personal preference thing. What works for one guy may not work for the other. Do what you think is going to reach your tow goal and not break you finacially.

erics76

I think we're missing that he's only going to have the truck for 36,000 miles. So it really doesn't matter if the cummins lasts 300,000 and the gas lasts 100,000. I'd have no worries pulling that load in a 2500 with a Hemi.

Commatoze

But which one will offer more trade-in value? I'll put my money on the diesel option.

kayjh

Ok, I give up! Robo, get the Hemi!

I've only seen one post looking at this from the other side (besides my post). For what it's worth, I took a year to make my decision. I test drove 1500's with the Hemi/auto, 2500's with the Hemi/auto and Cummins /48re. It is true that the 2500 has a more robust drivetrain, bigger brakes, etc.

When test towing my horse trailer with the 1500, it had no problem towing (in terms of power, suspension, handling, etc.), other than the fact that it couldn't tow the load in OD. As for brakes; in Canada when you are pulling a 2 axle trailer with a GVWR of 5,000 lbs+, you need electric (or some other type of) brakes for the trailer, so it soesn't really matter what size the truck brakes are. The truck brakes stop the truck and the trailer brakes stop the trailer. So, the 1500 isn't at a disadvantage here.

As for resale, as I posted earlier, it is clear that DC believes the Cummins will have a higher value at the end of 3 years - it sets the lease residual 4% higher to reflect this. In Canada, the Cummins/48re option adds about $7,000 to the cost of the truck over a 1500 Hemi/auto. For robo's mileage, higher resale and fuel savings won't make up the difference in 3 years.

But robo, as I started out saying, get the Hemi, there is really no "counterpoint" in this thread!

robo

Thanks so much for all the comments and suggestions. They are wonderful.

The shortest round trip distance I'll tow is 240 miles the longest is 2000 miles. 1-2 long and 8-12 short tows a year. The short routes have long hills up and down but not more than a 1000' gain. The trailer, all steel, has 4 tires (tandem) and electric brakes. I live in New Jersey so its not brutally cold.

I borrowed a friends F150 4x4 Extended cab with the 5.4L engine as my tow vehicle a few times this summer. The truck can pull the load but it has trouble on the hills. We've done the F150 brakes 3X in 38K miles so stoping with a load wears them excessively. My seat of the pants impression is that the F150 is somewhat man-handled by the 7K tow and it doesn't give me confidence.

I'd expect the RAM 1500 to be more like the F150 and the RAM 2500 more like an F250. Is that a realistic assesment?

I like the thought of having a little more mass (RAM 2500) in case I have to avoid an accident or deer (while towing). I'm guessing that the extra mass would help you keep control in that type of avoidance manuever but I'm not sure. Comments?

From your comments it appears that one could tow in the diesel without taking it out of overdrive. Is that correct?

Just to my dealers honest I checked out the Ford F250 with the 6.0L diesel. The Ford website has a comparison presentation that shows the torque on the Cummins HO rolling off and sharper than their engine. I know that torque is what moves everything so more and a flatter curve (ala Ford) is advantageous. As Cummins owners what's your take on the Ford data?

Thanks again for the info and views. Robo

03quadduallyho

If you ever have the unfortunate experience of coming downhill towing a trailer with a 1/2 ton truck and have the electric brakes fail on the trailer you would become a believer that the truck brakes DO matter no matter what anyone tells you. Therefore the 1/2 ton truck, whichever make you get, is not a realistic alternative. I would tow no trailer heavier than the truck is reallty built for ever again. The truck stopped but the brakes overheated and smoked and the auto trans was overreving the engine to try to slow it down. I nearly wet my pants and I am not a particularly nervous person. I'll tell you my last two truck have been duallys with diesels and I do not have a problem stopping even with the trailer brakes disconnected! Get a 3/4 ton truck no matter what!

Monte

Crabjoe

Robo,

Don't fall for Ford's advertising. I went to the site and took a look. It shows that the 6L PSD torque comes to life at 2000 rpms (Cummins comes up at 1400 rpms) and stays their longer then on the Cummins. It's true, but the 6L PSD is a higher reving engine (More like a gas motor). Nothing with with that, but here's the problem.

Under 2000 rpms, the 6L PSD seems to have no power. What I mean by this is that when I test drove a few Fords, 1 had the dead pedal issue. You step on the go pedal and the truck doesn't move. The others were really slow off the line but when the rpms got to 2000 rpms, they took off like a bullet. Ok, getting to 2000 rpms doesn't seem like a lot of time, but when your drive and trying to merge into traffic, it feels like forever and could get you hit! What's even crazier is there are some over at The Diesel Stop that say they have to start in low to get their tow moving. Now that sucks and is dangerous.

If your going to go with a diesel, go and test drive a few Fords and Dodges and make an informed decision. That's what I did and now have a Dodge on order. I would have never looked at a Dodge if the 6L PSD wasn't so problem plagued.

kayjh

Robo, based on your towing distances and frequency, I'd get the diesel. Even if you lived in a really cold climate, my advice would be the same. The Hemi is not going to be satisfactory towing a 7,000lb trailer 2,000 miles especially when hills/mountains are involved. It can do it, but not easily. The Cummins is made for your towing needs.

matthopp

The Hemi is probably maxed out and worked hard with your use, but will pull the load--the CTD wont be breaking a sweat yet

silver_goat

robo,

Having been in your shoes myself, there is no way I would ever tow again without a 2500 truck at the very least. Having the CTD is icing on the cake. The drive line, brakes and suspension on the 2500 will serve your better than a 1500. I use to tow a 4800# 27' tt with a club cab daktoa with the 5.2 engine. Granted the dakota had the same tow rating as the full size 1500 dodge and is smaller and lighter, but It was all it had just to pull 55 or 60 mph. Had trouble with brakes wearing, tranny heat even with a cooler, and suspension keeping the weight even. Milage was bad at 7 MPG.

Since moving to the 2500 CTD I can tow my bigger camper (6800 # and 32') around like a popup. I have to watch myself because I forget its back there. As far as the F*rd, I drove one but I wont even go there. It does have a bigger cab.

After towing for awhile, having more motor, trans, brakes, etc. is better. Better to have more than you need then need more than you have.

goat

y-knot

GET THE HIMI.........if you have to ask someone, what you should get.......You do not deserve a DIESEL.

Vittorio

Diesel.

Buzz

If you're only going to keep it for 2 years then engine longevity is really not an issue. Considering the oil changes are more expensive on diesel than gas and you really aren't towing very much, is spending an extra $6.000 for the diesel justified? I'd say go with the Hemi. Especially since you'll be owning it for such a short time. A word of caution though: If you buy the diesel, you may want to own it for a very long time!!