new trailer ,need cdl ?
11-09-2006, 03:07 PM
#46
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nsxt - Are you saying that the Ford has GCWR stamped on the door tag?
The general calculation of GCWR by the law is GVWR of truck plus GVWR of trailer (or GVW (whichever is greater)).
herb, Dodge's don't have this. They will use the above method.
The general calculation of GCWR by the law is GVWR of truck plus GVWR of trailer (or GVW (whichever is greater)).
herb, Dodge's don't have this. They will use the above method.
11-09-2006, 04:26 PM
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No, its not stamped on the door. Its in the Ford owner's manual and on the web site. I didn't find it in my Dodge's manual, but its in official Dodge documentation on the website somewhere.
While the law states that GCWR may be calculated by summing the truck and trailer, the law also recognizes the GCWR limit the manufacturer puts on the truck. If the GCWR of the truck is less than 26001, a CDL is not needed unless you are a bus, transporting hazardous material, etc.
Its pretty easy to get 3 x 7000 lbs trailer axles, and this would be well above the trucks GCWR if the summing method is used. Its pretty obvious the truck can't pull this safely.
The cop mistakenly used the sum of individual GVWs. The prosecutors know the law and use what the truck is rated for from the manufacturer.
For example, regardless of the GVW of the trailer, a Ram 2500 CTD is has a GCVW of 20000lbs. That's the limit the prosecutors, and smarter cops, would go by.
Of course, if you are actually weighed and the combo is over the GCVW of the truck, that then is illegal and likely to draw a fine.
While the law states that GCWR may be calculated by summing the truck and trailer, the law also recognizes the GCWR limit the manufacturer puts on the truck. If the GCWR of the truck is less than 26001, a CDL is not needed unless you are a bus, transporting hazardous material, etc.
Its pretty easy to get 3 x 7000 lbs trailer axles, and this would be well above the trucks GCWR if the summing method is used. Its pretty obvious the truck can't pull this safely.
The cop mistakenly used the sum of individual GVWs. The prosecutors know the law and use what the truck is rated for from the manufacturer.
For example, regardless of the GVW of the trailer, a Ram 2500 CTD is has a GCVW of 20000lbs. That's the limit the prosecutors, and smarter cops, would go by.
Of course, if you are actually weighed and the combo is over the GCVW of the truck, that then is illegal and likely to draw a fine.
11-09-2006, 05:27 PM
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ok lets try and find the link got a short trip coming up this weekend and still don't have cdl. Son took test yesterday and has to go back and retest. didn't expect all the questions about semi trucks.
11-09-2006, 05:38 PM
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11-09-2006, 08:44 PM
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Thats exactly what the Arizona cop was attempting, to crack down on 1 ton trucks towing more than they were rated for. This actually requires the combination to be scaled, not just sum up the GVWs.
Think about it this way: Lets say I have a really small trailer and put 3x 6000lb axles under it to get it declared at 18000 lbs. Given the 'sum it up' rule, a Camaro could legally tow it since the Camaros GVW is less than 6000lbs. Whereas an 3500 CTD could not legally tow since its GVW is 11000+.
Pretty silly huh? The law recognizes this and uses the power unit's GCWR when possible.
Think about it this way: Lets say I have a really small trailer and put 3x 6000lb axles under it to get it declared at 18000 lbs. Given the 'sum it up' rule, a Camaro could legally tow it since the Camaros GVW is less than 6000lbs. Whereas an 3500 CTD could not legally tow since its GVW is 11000+.
Pretty silly huh? The law recognizes this and uses the power unit's GCWR when possible.
11-09-2006, 08:47 PM
#52
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All this has been discussed before, many times. Its been over and over. Not much of the above is correct. The prosecuter many times eases over on laws that they do not really agree with. If you are pulling a trailer over 10,000 pounds the gvw of the truck only has one purpose, the computiing of the gcwr. Add it to the gvw of the trailer and you have the gross combination weight of the vehicle. The gvw does not count other than this. But if you have a load of horse dung and it is in the bed, now it counts.
A Dodge with a gvw of 11,000 pounds can legally pull a trailer with a gross weight of 32,000 pounds with three 7000 pound axles. Light trucks do not post gcwr for legal purposes on the spec plate which is where it has to be.
You can all trade war stories about all this but these are the facts. When you see a pickup pulling three full sized cars, and they do in all 48, he is over 26,000 pounds.
The maximum fine was 5000 for the driver and 5000 for the carrier, if you are both it is 10000 for driving a cmv with no cdl. If you want to take that chance, have at it. Last I heard they were doubling the fines for no cdl. Also a ticket for driving with out one is supposed to stop you from getting one.
The fmcsa book has it different but the states can make it more strict and most do. That is where the confusion comes in,.
A Dodge with a gvw of 11,000 pounds can legally pull a trailer with a gross weight of 32,000 pounds with three 7000 pound axles. Light trucks do not post gcwr for legal purposes on the spec plate which is where it has to be.
You can all trade war stories about all this but these are the facts. When you see a pickup pulling three full sized cars, and they do in all 48, he is over 26,000 pounds.
The maximum fine was 5000 for the driver and 5000 for the carrier, if you are both it is 10000 for driving a cmv with no cdl. If you want to take that chance, have at it. Last I heard they were doubling the fines for no cdl. Also a ticket for driving with out one is supposed to stop you from getting one.
The fmcsa book has it different but the states can make it more strict and most do. That is where the confusion comes in,.
11-09-2006, 09:06 PM
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All this has been discussed before, many times. Its been over and over. Not much of the above is correct. The prosecuter many times eases over on laws that they do not really agree with. If you are pulling a trailer over 10,000 pounds the gvw of the truck only has one purpose, the computiing of the gcwr. Add it to the gvw of the trailer and you have the gross combination weight of the vehicle. The gvw does not count other than this. But if you have a load of horse dung and it is in the bed, now it counts.
A Dodge with a gvw of 11,000 pounds can legally pull a trailer with a gross weight of 32,000 pounds with three 7000 pound axles. Light trucks do not post gcwr for legal purposes on the spec plate which is where it has to be.
You can all trade war stories about all this but these are the facts. When you see a pickup pulling three full sized cars, and they do in all 48, he is over 26,000 pounds.
The maximum fine was 5000 for the driver and 5000 for the carrier, if you are both it is 10000 for driving a cmv with no cdl. If you want to take that chance, have at it. Last I heard they were doubling the fines for no cdl. Also a ticket for driving with out one is supposed to stop you from getting one.
The fmcsa book has it different but the states can make it more strict and most do. That is where the confusion comes in,.
A Dodge with a gvw of 11,000 pounds can legally pull a trailer with a gross weight of 32,000 pounds with three 7000 pound axles. Light trucks do not post gcwr for legal purposes on the spec plate which is where it has to be.
You can all trade war stories about all this but these are the facts. When you see a pickup pulling three full sized cars, and they do in all 48, he is over 26,000 pounds.
The maximum fine was 5000 for the driver and 5000 for the carrier, if you are both it is 10000 for driving a cmv with no cdl. If you want to take that chance, have at it. Last I heard they were doubling the fines for no cdl. Also a ticket for driving with out one is supposed to stop you from getting one.
The fmcsa book has it different but the states can make it more strict and most do. That is where the confusion comes in,.
11-09-2006, 10:08 PM
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Dodge Towing Limits
There are two weights associated with light trucks, GVWR and GCWR. The 2 weights are fixed by the factory and are the max limits for the truck. GVW, max weight the truck can carry on its own and GCVW is the max weight the truck can handle with the trailer added.
On any vehicle, it is illegal to have in combination an actual total weight exceeding factory GCWR, and is subject to an overweight fine, regardless of CDL or not.
If you want to take a more realistic example, lets say I have a trailer with a GVWR of 15,000. So, even when its empty if we use the summing method this would then mean that a Ram 2500 (GVWR 9000) could tow it without a CDL, but a 3500 dually would need a CDL.
If this same trailer were fully loaded, then it would exceed the GCWR of the 2500, be unsafe and potentially result in a fine, but it would not exceed the GCWR of the 3500 dually.
Obviously absurd. Thats why the law recognizes the truck manufacturer's GCWR.
Found a better, concise explanation in a Michigan CDL link
There are two weights associated with light trucks, GVWR and GCWR. The 2 weights are fixed by the factory and are the max limits for the truck. GVW, max weight the truck can carry on its own and GCVW is the max weight the truck can handle with the trailer added.
On any vehicle, it is illegal to have in combination an actual total weight exceeding factory GCWR, and is subject to an overweight fine, regardless of CDL or not.
If you want to take a more realistic example, lets say I have a trailer with a GVWR of 15,000. So, even when its empty if we use the summing method this would then mean that a Ram 2500 (GVWR 9000) could tow it without a CDL, but a 3500 dually would need a CDL.
If this same trailer were fully loaded, then it would exceed the GCWR of the 2500, be unsafe and potentially result in a fine, but it would not exceed the GCWR of the 3500 dually.
Obviously absurd. Thats why the law recognizes the truck manufacturer's GCWR.
Found a better, concise explanation in a Michigan CDL link
11-10-2006, 05:05 PM
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Sorry to tell you nsxt but, your wrong. The manufacturer's rated combined weight is not and cannot be used to determine if a truck is overweight. The reason it cannot be used is it is not anywhere on the vehicle. The only number that can be used is GVWR, because it is required by law to marked on the VIN plate. Therefore for legal purposes the only way to determine if a combinations legal is to add the GVWR of the truck to the GVWR of the trailer, that is your legal GCVWR.
11-10-2006, 05:26 PM
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We went through the same issues towing through Arizona and New Mexico a while ago. The trailer had GVW 21,000, the F450 truck GVW was 11,500. With an unloaded trailer, we were certainly under 26,000. The cops said it was sum total GVW based, said we needed CDL and cited us. The cops did not fully understand the law.
Similar to the Michigan wording, the Arizona law 28-3101 says a Class D license is valid when:
(4) (c) A motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of twenty-six thousand pounds or less that tows a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than ten thousand pounds if the combined gross vehicle weight rating is less than twenty-six thousand one pounds.
Obviously, the key wording is:
if the combined gross vehicle weight rating is less than twenty-six thousand one pounds.
The F450 has GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) of 26,000. This has nothing to do with what the trailer is rated. When we pointed this out to the prosecutors, they were already aware of the issue due to having the same cops having a history of mistakenly citing people. They prosecutors said we were in compliance and did not need CDL.
They said if there is no GCWR on the truck, then they use the sum total GVWs of truck and trailer.
Similar to the Michigan wording, the Arizona law 28-3101 says a Class D license is valid when:
(4) (c) A motor vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of twenty-six thousand pounds or less that tows a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than ten thousand pounds if the combined gross vehicle weight rating is less than twenty-six thousand one pounds.
Obviously, the key wording is:
if the combined gross vehicle weight rating is less than twenty-six thousand one pounds.
The F450 has GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating) of 26,000. This has nothing to do with what the trailer is rated. When we pointed this out to the prosecutors, they were already aware of the issue due to having the same cops having a history of mistakenly citing people. They prosecutors said we were in compliance and did not need CDL.
They said if there is no GCWR on the truck, then they use the sum total GVWs of truck and trailer.
11-10-2006, 06:42 PM
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So, then Michigan DOT is wrong when they write:
**Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum loaded weight of a combination vehicle.
Perhaps one of you can inform them of the law.
**Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) means the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum loaded weight of a combination vehicle.
Perhaps one of you can inform them of the law.
11-10-2006, 07:56 PM
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A cop, DOT, judge, or professional trucker for 50 years etc... doesn't make them know everything! Read the book! GCWR over 26,000lbs. needs CDL. To get GCWR you add GVW of trailer and truck! You can legally register a dually over 30,000 lbs. example a 21,000 gvw trailer pulled by your 11,000 dually the GCWR is 32,000 lbs. You need CDL and when you cross the scales they weigh your axles. ex: 4500 on front 6500 on rear and 21000 on 3 7000lb. trailer axles. This stuff is very clear! understand? If you haul anything to make money with you are commercial! Herb sells carriages and is commercial. Car dealer sells his cars and is commercial! Lawn care hauls mowers and bobcat he is commercial! If you are commercial you follow DOT rules. If you are private and hauling your own junk with no money involved and under 26000lbs. You don't need squat!
11-10-2006, 08:05 PM
#59
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The factory rating if not posted is for the purpose of warranty use. If the truck does not exceed the tire and axle ratings, is plated for the weight, insured for it, and acccomidates the bridge laws, it is legal. It is also true that some states will not plate a pickup heavy, but most do. My tags were for 33,000 pounds on my 2500, had many dot checks, never a hit on overweight. I did though get a ticket for no cdl while running empty in Georgia, with a gvwr of 8800 and 21,000. Had to go get it again. The prosecuter allowed it to be reduced to an equipment fine because I was within the fmcsa rule and I thought that i was legal with that. He has the authhority to do that. Probably helped that I was Mayor of a town in Alabama.
A class eight tractor generally has a gvw of 28,000 or 30,000 and many times comes from the factory with no gvwr. Same as the pickup. When converted to a tractor it gains the gcwr. No many tractors are complete by the factory and have it all on the spec plate.
It used to be a practice to purchase a single axle truck with a long chassis, add a drop axle and a fifth wheel and now be ok for 80,000, but the factory did not rate it for that. If it comes out of the factory with no fifth wheel, it does not generally have a gcwr on it.
Our fire truck was manufactured as a straight truck with a 24,000 gvw. It then was completed as a fire truck by Quality Fire Trucks in Alabama and given a rating of 35,000 with no chassis changes. Neither spec plate lists a gcwr.
Several posts mentioned a lighter truck pulling more weight. Ok this is true as far as a cdl goes, but the heavier truck could pull more weight when plated for it and a cdl driver operates it. It is done all the time, a 3/4 ton ford or chev or dodge, a 48 foot trailer with two axles, squeek by with the low gvw ratings and run non cdl. The same load on a one ton requires a cdl.
Knowing what I know now, I would not have a three axle three car trailer, I would use two 7100 pound axles with 19.5 tires and be loaded less than the weight on my six car three axle trailer and weigh a bunch less than the three axle trailer.
The wayto haul three cars or four small cars is a 2500 with 19.5 wheels and a two axle trailer with 19.5s. With that you could be legal with no cdl but borderline and be legal to 26,000.
11-10-2006, 08:15 PM
#60
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A cop, DOT, judge, or professional trucker for 50 years etc... doesn't make them know everything! Read the book! GCWR over 26,000lbs. needs CDL. To get GCWR you add GVW of trailer and truck! You can legally register a dually over 30,000 lbs. example a 21,000 gvw trailer pulled by your 11,000 dually the GCWR is 32,000 lbs. You need CDL and when you cross the scales they weigh your axles. ex: 4500 on front 6500 on rear and 21000 on 3 7000lb. trailer axles. This stuff is very clear! understand? If you haul anything to make money with you are commercial! Herb sells carriages and is commercial. Car dealer sells his cars and is commercial! Lawn care hauls mowers and bobcat he is commercial! If you are commercial you follow DOT rules. If you are private and hauling your own junk with no money involved and under 26000lbs. You don't need squat!
I suspect this has been done so that a cop stopping you can write you without weighing you.