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How large of a trailer can I tow?

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Old 05-21-2004, 08:36 AM   #61
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I never said that it wouldnt handle it. You keep good rubber on the ground, keep your load proportioned right, and you usually wont have any problems. What I am saying is that 4 wheels in the back are safer than 2. 2 will get the job done, but why not have 4 forget about it. A dually is just more stable, and if you have a blow out you have an extra tire to support the load until your stopped.

Barry, you dont have to agree with me. I know whats right for me because I have been in these situations. I have hauled the heavy loads with both SRW & DRW. They both handled it, but the DRW was more stable, and in my eyes its the safer way to go.

Accidents are unavoidable no matter who you are. So when one comes my way, I want to be as prepared as I can. For my heavy loads, and my long hauls I will choose a DRW. For my light, local loads, I will run my 2500 SRW.

I am not a truck driver. I only tow for my hobbies. I know you guys know the laws better than I do. I just have my opinion from my experiences, and observations.
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Old 05-21-2004, 08:45 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barry Smith
I'm alot safer than the vacationers that pull the ole fiver out a couple of times a year just in time to gripe about those guys overloading their trucks out on the roads trying to kill somebody because they are to cheap to by real equipment to pull those trailers.
I'll put my traffic violation and accident (or lack thereof) record up against yours.
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I see many RVers pulling tag trailers and fivers with 1/2 ton trucks their bumpers dragging the road I usually see them when they do something stupid and almost kills me or someone else!
Check my signature out again. I don't believe my rig fits that description, do you?
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So guys because your scared to use you trucks for the purpose they are made don't throw off on those of us that do use them for a living. If I felt I was unsafe I would be the first to pull off the road I love me to much to hurt myself!
Fear has nothing to do with it. The purpose for which our trucks are made and how we might choose to use them is ultimately defined by the limits established by those who designed (yeah, the engineers) and manufactured it. As an example, my company manufactures engines and compressors for the oil & gas industry. I'm dealing with a situation right now where a customer chose to modify one of our 60,000 lb rated rod load compressors knowing (after we cautioned them on 3 separate occasions) that their operating conditions and the cylinder bore they selected will put the rod load at 69,000 lbs under normal operating conditions. This past winter, colder inlet temperatures made the gas more viscous and increased rod loads even further - now, when a little liquid condensed out and hit the unit, a $300,000 wreck resulted. To make matters worse, the customer chose to reassemble the unit and run it again - it took 30 minutes after startup to have the same $300,000 wreck again. But we engineers know nothing, and ratings are meaningless.

Back to the topic - DOT and state licensing regulations are primarily concerned with revenue generation and roadbed/bridge loading & damage, not safety or confirmation that manufacturer's ratings aren't being exceeded - as proof, look at those states where one can declare any GVWR they want so long as they are willing to pay for it when they register the vehicle. Just because, as an engineer, I have a concern with those who choose to totally ignore the manufacturer's weight limits doesn't mean that I'm afraid to use my truck. And, frankly, I don't care if those who choose to run over their ratings kill themselves or not - they are adults and can live with their decisions. My concern is for those innocents they may take out with them in the process.

And, yes, I'm concerned about those RVers, too. As a moderator on iRV2.com, we get questions all the time from novices who want to know, "Can I tow this 19,999 lb GVWR 40' quad slide tandem dually 5th wheel I'm looking at with my 4-cylinder, automatic Ford Ranger?" Too many times, the response from other RVers is, "Heck, yeah. Just be sure you license your truck appropriately. Add a K&N air filter, and you'll have plenty of power! Oh, and you might have to add some airbags to keep the thing looking somewhat level." The fact of the matter is, the only way we experienced RVers can try to keep these RV rigs off the roads is to urge the questioner to choose an RV that will not exceed the ratings of his/her tow vehicle. If, as a user of the roads, you can't understand the importance of that, I'm really sorry. As an aside, do you know what we get thrown back in our faces many times? "Hey, I see those Dodge 2500 SRW trucks out on the Interstate all the time pulling 40' goosenecks and running at 35,000+ lbs GVW. Therefore, how can you say that I shouldn't pull this 19,999 lb GVWR 5th wheel RV with my Dodge 2500?"

I never figured to change anyone's mind, and you're not going to change mine, so I can't really see where further discussion of this topic will be productive.

Rusty
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Old 05-21-2004, 09:11 AM   #63
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Palmetto, I disagree! I've got a 2500 single wheel. At 28000lbs. gross I have 4800 +/- 50lbs. on the front axle, 6000 +/- 100lbs. on the rear axle and 17000 +/- 1000lbs. on the trailer. My E rated tires are 3450lbs. each that is safe for 6900lbs. on the rear axle. I am 1000lbs. under manf. spec.


Something wrong with this set-up!!

I have 4800 +/- 50lbs. on the front axle, 6000 +/- 100lbs.

Thats 10,800 on your truck!! 2500 Dodge is 8800 gvw 2,000 overloaded!!

My trailer is rated for 20000lbs.

25% pin weight would be 5000 lbs.

Way too much for a 2500!!

Barry You are not safe or legal!!
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Old 05-21-2004, 09:35 AM   #64
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Yep,Yep, Yep, I've been called
unsafe partially cause I was born with less than a FULL load!

Now, I got 2 Questions;
1. so how much can the guy tow

2.what the heck does IMMUTABLE mean
STY
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Old 05-21-2004, 09:38 AM   #65
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Originally posted by rangerst
Now, I got 2 Questions;
2.what the heck does IMMUTABLE mean
STY
Immutable - not subject to mutation or change. Unalterable.

Rusty
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:03 PM   #66
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Sorry to leave such a great thread But I have to go chase down some schoolbusses. Oh yeah, and Rusty, be glad to compare safety records. Got a couple of miles on the road also. When I was a kid, I didn't fool with scooters, liked cars.
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:11 PM   #67
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Originally posted by Haulin_in_Dixie
When I was a kid, I didn't fool with scooters, liked cars.
At 8 years old, I couldn't talk the folks into a car. I got my first car at 14. Had to sell my Honda 305 Super Hawk to get it, though. (My mother's idea - she hated motorcycles.)

Rusty
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:16 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by RustyJC
.

Therefore, how can you say that I shouldn't pull this 19,999 lb GVWR 5th wheel RV with my Dodge 2500?"

, so I can't really see where further discussion of this topic will be productive.

Rusty
Just noticed this one, better check the owners manual of a 2500 again, that is within the "engineers" specs at Dodge. My 2500 is rated for 20,300 pounds GCWR. Actually the powers to be in Dodge give the 2500 more trailer capacity than the 3500. The GCWR is the same for the 2500 and 3500. Guess that means that they don't give a crap what is on the road, just how much load you put on their U joints. The trans is rated for 26,000, the rear is the same in a F450, U joints are all that is left.
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Old 05-21-2004, 12:32 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Haulin_in_Dixie
Just noticed this one, better check the owners manual of a 2500 again, that is within the "engineers" specs at Dodge. My 2500 is rated for 20,300 pounds GCWR. Actually the powers to be in Dodge give the 2500 more trailer capacity than the 3500. The GCWR is the same for the 2500 and 3500. Guess that means that they don't give a crap what is on the road, just how much load you put on their U joints. The trans is rated for 26,000, the rear is the same in a F450, U joints are all that is left.
Well, actually, it's not. The 2500 has a GVWR of 8,800 lbs. The pin weight of a 19,999 lb 5th wheel will typically be about 4,000 lbs (20% of total weight). If the 2500 has a laden curb weight of 7,000 lbs plus a pin weight of 4,000 lbs, its GVW will be 11,000 lbs, or 2,200 lbs (i.e., 25%) over its GVWR. Plus, if the 2500 has a 20,000 lb GCWR, the trailer weight of 19,999 lbs plus the truck's laden curb weight of 7,000 lbs yields a GCW of 26,999 lbs, or 6,999 lbs (i.e., 35%) over the 2500's 20,000 lb GCWR.

My truck has the highest GCWR ever given a 2nd generation truck - 21,500 lbs. There's no 2500 with a GCWR anywhere close to that. It was ordered specifically with the options required to get that GCWR - 3500 with HO, 6-speed and 4.10 axle. With a laden curb weight of 7,680 lbs (as weighed on certified truck scales), a 19,999 lb 5th wheel would put us at 27,679 lbs GCW, or 6,179 lbs over our GCWR. In addition, it's 4,000 lb pin weight plus our 7,680 lbs LCW would put us at 11,680 lbs GVW, or 1,180 lbs over our 10,500 lb GVWR.

Manufacturer's trailer tow ratings are about as worthless as the mammaries on a boar hog. They totally ignore the differences in hitch/pin weight between a tag trailer (12% is typical for an RV) and a 5th wheel (20% is typical for an RV) and the truck GVW ramifications associated with that hitch/pin weight. Furthermore, these ratings are based on a truck laden curb weight (LCW) that is totally unrealistic, as I will demonstrate below.

IF one wants to stay within the manufacturer's ratings, the following formulas apply:

Truck's GCWR - Truck's LCW = maximum allowable total weight of loaded trailer.

Truck's GVWR - Truck's LCW = maximum allowable hitch/pin weight of loaded trailer.

The second formula is what kills the 2500 for towing 5vers - it will run out of GVWR way before it runs out of GCWR.

Just to illustrate, here are the formulas applied to our rig:

21,500 lbs GCWR - 7,680 lbs LCW = 13,820 lbs maximum allowable loaded trailer weight (you tell me how Dodge gets a trailer tow rating of 16,100 lbs for our truck! A 16,100 lb trailer, added to our 7,680 lbs LCW, would put us at 23,780 lbs GCW, 2,280 lbs over our GCWR. Obviously, the trailer tow rating assumes a curb weight of 21,500 lbs GCWR minus 16,100 lbs trailer tow rating = 5,400 lbs. How realistic is that for a Cummins/NV5600 equipped Quad cab dually? )

10,500 lbs GVWR - 7,680 lbs LCW = 2,820 lbs maximum allowable hitch/pin weight of loaded trailer

Our 5th wheel weighs 13,500 lbs, so we're good by 320 lbs. This checks out with our GCW of 21,180 versus GCWR of 21,500.

The pin weight of our 5th wheel is 2,700 lbs, so we're good by 120 lbs. This checks out with our GVW of 10,380 versus GVWR of 10,500.

Rusty
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:12 AM   #70
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Palmetto, you're right 4 tires are better than 2. 2 is what I have so 2 is what I use. The next truck I buy will be a dually but until then I'll use my SRW. You're also right about different things being right for different people. I wouldn't what anyone doing something they felt wasn't safe.

Rick CJ the rear axle rating is 6084lbs. and the curb weight is right around 2500lbs. The front axle rating is 4850lbs. That gives you 10934lbs. Rear axle loaded as I said 6000lbs.

Rick I'm sure you are probably the CEO of J.B. Hunt trucking Co. but I am Safe and Legal! If you think not ask the Tenn. DOT they say I am.

Rusty we agree to disagree! I am sure there will be a subject we will find mutual ground on ( I have no idea what!) this is not it. So until then happy camping!
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Old 05-24-2004, 08:26 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Barry Smith
Rusty we agree to disagree! I am sure there will be a subject we will find mutual ground on ( I have no idea what!) this is not it. So until then happy camping!
No problem with that, Barry. As my dear ole Mom used to say, "You can disagree without being disagreeable." See ya down the road - if you happen to see me in a Flying J, coffee is on me (same goes for you, HiD).

Rusty
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Old 05-24-2004, 09:24 AM   #72
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Rick CJ the rear axle rating is 6084lbs. and the curb weight is right around 2500lbs. The front axle rating is 4850lbs. That gives you 10934lbs. Rear axle loaded as I said 6000lbs.


Barry,
That's what the problem is you can't add the front and rear together to get 10934. Your truck is only rated 8800. You would be 2,000 over your gvw. and if checked you would be fined. You can find this info inside your door jam.

My 3500 is 11,000 gvw the front is 4850 and the rear is 7500. If you max 1 axle out the other axle better be under your gvw.

If you have 6000 on the rear you have to have less than 2800 on the front, hard to do with a diesel up front.
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Old 05-24-2004, 10:04 AM   #73
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Here's one source of the "confusion":

Big rigs - the sum of truck GAWRs normally equals the GVWR.

Light trucks - the sum of truck GAWRs will usually be greater than the manufacturer's GVWR.

For example, my truck's ratings are as follows:

Front GAWR = 4,500 lbs

Rear GAWR = 7,500 lbs

Sum of GAWRs = 12,000 lbs

Manufacturer's GVWR (door sticker) = 10,500 lbs


Rusty
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:08 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by RickCJ
Rick CJ the rear axle rating is 6084lbs. and the curb weight is right around 2500lbs. The front axle rating is 4850lbs. That gives you 10934lbs. Rear axle loaded as I said 6000lbs.


Barry,
That's what the problem is you can't add the front and rear together to get 10934. Your truck is only rated 8800. You would be 2,000 over your gvw. and if checked you would be fined. You can find this info inside your door jam.

My 3500 is 11,000 gvw the front is 4850 and the rear is 7500. If you max 1 axle out the other axle better be under your gvw.

If you have 6000 on the rear you have to have less than 2800 on the front, hard to do with a diesel up front.
Once again, that is total bs, when plated for the weight and pulling a semi-style trailer the GCWR superceeds the GVW of the truck. The GCWR is determined by adding the GVW of the truck to the GVW of the trailer. Your critical points are tire capacity, axle capacity, and GCWR. And of course that you are plated for the weight. You can flap your gums with all your legal mumbo jumbo all you want but you are wrong and half of the trucks on the road would be shut down if you were correct. You have been camping and pushing a pencil a long time, I have been out here driving these things longer.

You can have your opinion on what is safe but when you cross into what is legal, you are just flat wrong. As I tried to say to you, as an engineer, your place in life is far above what my place in life is, but your expertise is engineering and you should use that advantage, in the real world of working with trucks, you have beliefs that just are not true. I applaud you for doing your best to be safe, but I am safe, and do not fit your concept. You are greatly misleading people by pressing your concept of how it should be. It is not that way. A truck must comply with its plated weight and the axles and tires. GVW and GVCR are two completely different things, a straight truck is GVW and a combination vehicle is governed by GCWR.

This is because of sound engineering reasoning also. The straight truck has stresses and problems that are cured by the semi-style vehicle. The entire load on my truck is at frame hight, four inches ahead of the rear axle, a low center of gravity, with no top heavy concept at all. A small load in the bed is more unsafe due to the influences that it has on the truck handling. And all this is stopped by brakes equal to the entire load where the straight truck must stop on the truck brakes.

I have been through many DOT checks and across many weigh stations with my 8800 pound truck, weighing close to or over 30,000 pounds and over six thousand on the rear axle. I have never gotten a summons yet for overweight on the truck. I have had DOT checks in Alabama, Georgia, Arkansas, Lousiana, Tennessee, and weighed in most states in the eastern two thirds of the country.

Jeez.... can you accept the concept, you are wrong....
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:23 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Haulin_in_Dixie
You can have your opinion on what is safe but when you cross into what is legal, you are just flat wrong. As I tried to say to you, as an engineer, your place in life is far above what my place in life is, but your expertise is engineering and you should use that advantage, in the real world of working with trucks, you have beliefs that just are not true.
Just for the record, I don't know if RickCJ is an engineer or not, but you might check out the author before you start your bad-mouthing. I was the engineer you were trashing before - do you have the two of us confused? You respond to RickCJ's post and then launch into a tirade about engineers - what's the deal?

Rusty
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