Ever put those safety chains to use?
03-18-2004, 11:27 AM
#76
DTR Founder
I can't believe what I'm reading. No rules have been broken here, so I don't want to close it quite yet, but I'm wondering, if the chains are there, why not use them? Who are you to play russian roulette with other people's lives? I know you have a lot of good information for the site, but I do not understand this.
03-18-2004, 12:06 PM
#77
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I think some of this is an argument about legality and also part is is about personal beliefs and philosophies. The more i read and think about it I have to agree in alot of ways that a goose neck is like a fifth wheel, even semi's with fifthwheels and goosenecks dont have to chain down. Reason being? My thought actually goes to BBD's comment and also more recently a CHP commercial vehicle inspector who i asked about this.
The CHP commented that safety chains on locking goosenecks or for that matter locking fifthwheel plate tractors are in an effect more dangerous because of the whipping effect that would result from the chain snapping the gooseneck back and forth across the flat surfaces around the ball. Being longer than the truck and heavier the physical changes in weight location sliding around would create a very violent and uncontrolible situation on a flat surface in in the smaller tow vehicle... truck bed or surface. Plus he said thier design allows near zero failure rates aside from poor equiptment inspection and maintence. When fifthwheels come off of pickups and tractors it is 100% driver error by california's inturpretation for lack of inspection and or proper hook up. He even commented that they are designed when loaded properly dig in and prevent the trailer from gaining speed where as if they are chained in they will ultimately continue to roll with the truck, whipping the truck most likely out of control and causing a more hazardous situation.
News to me but i do have to say that i am defately rethinking this whole thing especially after that conversation. Jack is right hthough this thread has been really informative Dont close it and dont take it personal
The CHP commented that safety chains on locking goosenecks or for that matter locking fifthwheel plate tractors are in an effect more dangerous because of the whipping effect that would result from the chain snapping the gooseneck back and forth across the flat surfaces around the ball. Being longer than the truck and heavier the physical changes in weight location sliding around would create a very violent and uncontrolible situation on a flat surface in in the smaller tow vehicle... truck bed or surface. Plus he said thier design allows near zero failure rates aside from poor equiptment inspection and maintence. When fifthwheels come off of pickups and tractors it is 100% driver error by california's inturpretation for lack of inspection and or proper hook up. He even commented that they are designed when loaded properly dig in and prevent the trailer from gaining speed where as if they are chained in they will ultimately continue to roll with the truck, whipping the truck most likely out of control and causing a more hazardous situation.
News to me but i do have to say that i am defately rethinking this whole thing especially after that conversation. Jack is right hthough this thread has been really informative Dont close it and dont take it personal
03-18-2004, 01:16 PM
#78
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I can see where BBD is coming from. It is a fact that a properly loaded GN will not detatch from the truck. The only way it could come off is if the ball actually broke completely off. Trailer builders didn't even start putting chains on GN's until sometime in the late 90's. Saying that he's dangerous or could kill a schoolbus of kids, or playing russian roulette with people's lives is a little far-fetched and dramatic. He probably feels like he's being attacked, I would. There are 1,000's of dangerous things that could happen before the chance of a GN disconnecting from a truck. Think about this: there are many many more GN's running around without safety chains than there are with. We've got 5 GN trailers, and only 2 came with chains. How many instances have any of you heard about a GN disconnecting and killing people? Remember, we're talking about Gooseneck trailers here, not bumper pulls. Completely different story there.
03-18-2004, 02:18 PM
#79
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Originally posted by Top
The chains are there for a reason, to hopefully make the trailer follow the tow vehicle, and not careen across the interstate crushing a school bus full of children.
Selfish is NOT the word that comes to my mind, when I see a callous uncaring statement like that.
The chains are there for a reason, to hopefully make the trailer follow the tow vehicle, and not careen across the interstate crushing a school bus full of children.
Selfish is NOT the word that comes to my mind, when I see a callous uncaring statement like that.
03-18-2004, 02:57 PM
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I mostly agree with BBD too. I currently do not have chains on my GN Horse trailer, but by Texas law, I am exempt from safety chains b/c I have farm plates on the trailer. I plan on putting chains on very soon, just so there are no questions on the legality. I doubt they will actually serve a purpose.
I think GN and 5ths are in the same category (physics of the rig is very similar) and safety chains would more than likely do more harm than good and be very stressed under heavy loads. A bumper pull needs safety chains b/c the weight distribution is completely different and the trailer sits on the ball much differently. The safety chain system, like all systems, is governed by the weakest link. You could have heavy-rated chain, but attach the chain to a week point or with a weak method and defeat the purpose of the chains.
I am sure it happens more than I have seen, but I know I have been at intersections when a tractor has left the flatbed semi trailer behind it b/c the trailer was uncoupled and that was because of operator error. Everything is in the operators control and you can not safety engineer everything which is why we have accidents.
Great thread....I have learned a whole lot
I think GN and 5ths are in the same category (physics of the rig is very similar) and safety chains would more than likely do more harm than good and be very stressed under heavy loads. A bumper pull needs safety chains b/c the weight distribution is completely different and the trailer sits on the ball much differently. The safety chain system, like all systems, is governed by the weakest link. You could have heavy-rated chain, but attach the chain to a week point or with a weak method and defeat the purpose of the chains.
I am sure it happens more than I have seen, but I know I have been at intersections when a tractor has left the flatbed semi trailer behind it b/c the trailer was uncoupled and that was because of operator error. Everything is in the operators control and you can not safety engineer everything which is why we have accidents.
Great thread....I have learned a whole lot
03-18-2004, 03:02 PM
#82
Originally posted by ddestruel
Every tractor trailer you pass doesn't have chains whats the difference????
Every tractor trailer you pass doesn't have chains whats the difference????
If you make a statement like this..."Let the GN go its way and i'll go mine. May sound selfish - but too bad.".... You should expect people to question your concern about other people on the highway.
Even the State Trooper he questioned told him this "His exact words "they are not required but if you have them go ahead and hook them up".
Go ahead and hook them up....Why because it is safer to hook up the chains. Is it a time issue? are people concerned that the extra 2 seconds it takes will put them behind?
Of course not, not using them if you have them would be absurd, just like arguing about any safety issue, just to try and legitimize a selfish statement that should never have been made in the first place.
JMHO
03-18-2004, 05:50 PM
#84
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O.K. Guys... Take a deep breath. In response to BBD's tongue in cheek remark of "when the frame splits in half" with all of your 1/2 million miles of experience you know the safety chains would be hooked to a piece of truck and the breakaway would also still be hooked. (Assuming you meant the truck frame splitting) But I know your statement was in jest.
Actually, my only experience with a "loose tag-a-long" was about twenty years ago. My dad and I had a horse trailer come loose. He asked if I was sure if everything was hooked up properly as we were walking to the back of the truck which we used to stop the runaway. I was certain it was. When we got to the rear of the truck, there on the ground laid the tongue of the trailer with the ball still attached, safety chains hooked, brekaway hooked and still plugged in. The only thing wrong was the reciever was laying on the ground also! Dealer said OOPS! Truck was only 2 weeks old. (First they tried the "You mean you didn't go around and check the bolts on your factory installed hitch?" When they realized that wouldn't fly they fixed minor damage to truck,trailer and installed new hitch.
STAMEY started with a great question: the only thing I would like to add is, you can always shorten a too long chain with a twist or two, and make sure you cross them. I still usually hook the to the hooks on reciever for lack of a better place, but always remember the experience Dad and I had.
GOOD LUCK
Rick
Actually, my only experience with a "loose tag-a-long" was about twenty years ago. My dad and I had a horse trailer come loose. He asked if I was sure if everything was hooked up properly as we were walking to the back of the truck which we used to stop the runaway. I was certain it was. When we got to the rear of the truck, there on the ground laid the tongue of the trailer with the ball still attached, safety chains hooked, brekaway hooked and still plugged in. The only thing wrong was the reciever was laying on the ground also! Dealer said OOPS! Truck was only 2 weeks old. (First they tried the "You mean you didn't go around and check the bolts on your factory installed hitch?" When they realized that wouldn't fly they fixed minor damage to truck,trailer and installed new hitch.
STAMEY started with a great question: the only thing I would like to add is, you can always shorten a too long chain with a twist or two, and make sure you cross them. I still usually hook the to the hooks on reciever for lack of a better place, but always remember the experience Dad and I had.
GOOD LUCK
Rick
03-18-2004, 05:52 PM
#85
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Originally posted by ramlovingvet
Indeed I sure am glad I dont drive near him
Indeed I sure am glad I dont drive near him
03-18-2004, 07:08 PM
#86
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Stir the bucket, stir the bucket......
If you dont want to drive next me o the highway, great! I feel much better left out of the pack.
With the 100,000's of miles Ive driven and not even little misshap, yall can criticize all you want. I do this for a living. Ya'll start doing it for a living and I might even take some of you seriously.
I didnt get 414,000 miles on my truck and keep it looking new by neglecting my equipment. I would still prefer to run without my chains. Especially since every time I hook up or unhook I have to get in the bed to latch the chains.
thank yo for your time
If you dont want to drive next me o the highway, great! I feel much better left out of the pack.
With the 100,000's of miles Ive driven and not even little misshap, yall can criticize all you want. I do this for a living. Ya'll start doing it for a living and I might even take some of you seriously.
I didnt get 414,000 miles on my truck and keep it looking new by neglecting my equipment. I would still prefer to run without my chains. Especially since every time I hook up or unhook I have to get in the bed to latch the chains.
thank yo for your time
03-18-2004, 07:27 PM
#87
Originally posted by BigBlackDodge
I would still prefer to run without my chains. Especially since every time I hook up or unhook I have to get in the bed to latch the chains.
thank yo for your time
I would still prefer to run without my chains. Especially since every time I hook up or unhook I have to get in the bed to latch the chains.
thank yo for your time
03-19-2004, 03:01 PM
#88
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Did you know that only a certain amount of lighting is required for commercial vehicles.
When you see a chicken truck- rooster cruiser (extremely well lighted truck) going down the highway and he has 1 of his 200 chicken lights is not working- he can get a ticket. Even though it is not required lighting.
So in other words - if you have chains on your trailer they need to be in use - although there is not a law for it. If yo dont have chains on your trailer - then dont worry about it. So if there is no law for it - whats the big deal?
Boy I tell you, some people blow things so way out of proportion.
Do all these over loaded fith wheel trailers being pulled by pick-ups going up and down the highway causeing traffic jams on the interstate because they cant even run highway speed - do they all have safety chains?
About 3 months ago on my way to Houston an 18-wheeler rear ended a hot shot truck pulling a gn. the rear on the gn was toast and the and the frame was twisted, I couldnt tell exactly happen to the truck since it was off in the ditch. The GN was still attached to the trcuk after being hit.
When you see a chicken truck- rooster cruiser (extremely well lighted truck) going down the highway and he has 1 of his 200 chicken lights is not working- he can get a ticket. Even though it is not required lighting.
So in other words - if you have chains on your trailer they need to be in use - although there is not a law for it. If yo dont have chains on your trailer - then dont worry about it. So if there is no law for it - whats the big deal?
Boy I tell you, some people blow things so way out of proportion.
Do all these over loaded fith wheel trailers being pulled by pick-ups going up and down the highway causeing traffic jams on the interstate because they cant even run highway speed - do they all have safety chains?
About 3 months ago on my way to Houston an 18-wheeler rear ended a hot shot truck pulling a gn. the rear on the gn was toast and the and the frame was twisted, I couldnt tell exactly happen to the truck since it was off in the ditch. The GN was still attached to the trcuk after being hit.
03-19-2004, 03:20 PM
#89
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Stir Stir Stir Stir
You could relate this to some pro and anit gun activist speeches and the way people inturpret things. "Every gun is dangerous and should have a lock on it" "If you dont have a reason why should you own a gun or have a concealed carry permit" "Assualt weapons have no purpose so why should people be allowed to buy them" Probably a really bad analogy but alot of people say things are unsafe without a clear understanding, i just feel that there is a common misunderstanding about GN's and the threat that the suposedly pose on the highway. I use the gun comments poorly to emphise that GN threats that everybody keeps stating are not based on facts more so they are emotions. (let me also add i am a consealed carry permit holder and active NRA member)
I making these analogies because i think that many of our arguements are founded more on emotions and gut feeling than law and physical facts. Top i do believe this has alot to do with tractor trailers because what we are discussing are comercial trailering laws which is what a Gooseneck trailer is defined as being. Therefore the same physical characteristics, laws and pratices are very closely related. Therefore i feel that my statement was entirely appropriate.
..."Let the GN go its way and i'll go mine. May sound selfish - but too bad.".... You should expect people to question your concern about other people on the highway."
I am very concerned about others on the highway chains or none i am pointing out that the Feds made their decision for a reason.
Even on a Tractor trailer if the brakes arent adjusted the trailer AINT stoppin when the spring brakes activate. Therefore the trailer has been improperly maintained likewise if somebody's battery is drained on thier trailer or the brakes are not properly setup the end result would be disaterous and back on one of the first pages you will see that i did comment about liability due to negligence.
Matthop made a very good point
"I think GN and 5ths are in the same category (physics of the rig is very similar) and safety chains would more than likely do more harm than good and be very stressed under heavy loads. A bumper pull needs safety chains b/c the weight distribution is completely different and the trailer sits on the ball much differently."
His comments about loading positioning and physical characteristics on the trailers explains just why Tractor trailers, GN's and fifthwheel campers dont need or have chains in most cases. This is because like a tractor trailer, a gooseneck and fifthwheel will only release because of operator error or ignorance to inspections, otherwise it cannot come off, and if the trialer flips over the truck will remain attached to the ball and flip over with it.
Maybe im wrong, flame me if you want, but i agree with HID & BBD
Some people take opinion one step further in this case BBD is stating fact that the Fed's for a reason understand that chains arent necessary. "If they are there its fine to hook them up"... but they are not necessary maintain highway safety, like stated goosenecks are exempt for a reason they don't pose a failure threat just like a tractor king pin.
I am not saying dont use them I am just arguing that stating that people are inconsiderate towards others or creating a hazardous situation is not entirely true. Proper maintence and equiptment setup makes the GN breakaway braking system just as effective as the spring brakes, thats why the feds group them together and properly loaded again i ask what others have asked how physically can the trailer come off. Bounce and break? Bind and come loose, should have seen that in your walk around.
I use chains, and i do walk arounds all the time, i also been a CDL Driver trainer and pull doubles and tripples and was a dispactcher, but i also like to argue that alot of these arguements people keep staing in the name of common sense and worst case scenario are in alot of ways inpractical and not founded on fact. IMHO The ball will not fail nor will the goose neck lock, nor can the trailer physically come off if properly loaded and even if it does if properly maintained the safety system in place will work flawlessly just like springs do when properly maintained on a tractor trailer. but the chains when used with this system could very well create a more hazardous situation.
Actually in the end the GN's that i have seen come off typically tear the frame at the uprights. They didnt come off the ball. I have seen three seperate cases of this in Montana. Chains worked wonders there.
You could relate this to some pro and anit gun activist speeches and the way people inturpret things. "Every gun is dangerous and should have a lock on it" "If you dont have a reason why should you own a gun or have a concealed carry permit" "Assualt weapons have no purpose so why should people be allowed to buy them" Probably a really bad analogy but alot of people say things are unsafe without a clear understanding, i just feel that there is a common misunderstanding about GN's and the threat that the suposedly pose on the highway. I use the gun comments poorly to emphise that GN threats that everybody keeps stating are not based on facts more so they are emotions. (let me also add i am a consealed carry permit holder and active NRA member)
I making these analogies because i think that many of our arguements are founded more on emotions and gut feeling than law and physical facts. Top i do believe this has alot to do with tractor trailers because what we are discussing are comercial trailering laws which is what a Gooseneck trailer is defined as being. Therefore the same physical characteristics, laws and pratices are very closely related. Therefore i feel that my statement was entirely appropriate.
..."Let the GN go its way and i'll go mine. May sound selfish - but too bad.".... You should expect people to question your concern about other people on the highway."
I am very concerned about others on the highway chains or none i am pointing out that the Feds made their decision for a reason.
Even on a Tractor trailer if the brakes arent adjusted the trailer AINT stoppin when the spring brakes activate. Therefore the trailer has been improperly maintained likewise if somebody's battery is drained on thier trailer or the brakes are not properly setup the end result would be disaterous and back on one of the first pages you will see that i did comment about liability due to negligence.
Matthop made a very good point
"I think GN and 5ths are in the same category (physics of the rig is very similar) and safety chains would more than likely do more harm than good and be very stressed under heavy loads. A bumper pull needs safety chains b/c the weight distribution is completely different and the trailer sits on the ball much differently."
His comments about loading positioning and physical characteristics on the trailers explains just why Tractor trailers, GN's and fifthwheel campers dont need or have chains in most cases. This is because like a tractor trailer, a gooseneck and fifthwheel will only release because of operator error or ignorance to inspections, otherwise it cannot come off, and if the trialer flips over the truck will remain attached to the ball and flip over with it.
Maybe im wrong, flame me if you want, but i agree with HID & BBD
Some people take opinion one step further in this case BBD is stating fact that the Fed's for a reason understand that chains arent necessary. "If they are there its fine to hook them up"... but they are not necessary maintain highway safety, like stated goosenecks are exempt for a reason they don't pose a failure threat just like a tractor king pin.
I am not saying dont use them I am just arguing that stating that people are inconsiderate towards others or creating a hazardous situation is not entirely true. Proper maintence and equiptment setup makes the GN breakaway braking system just as effective as the spring brakes, thats why the feds group them together and properly loaded again i ask what others have asked how physically can the trailer come off. Bounce and break? Bind and come loose, should have seen that in your walk around.
I use chains, and i do walk arounds all the time, i also been a CDL Driver trainer and pull doubles and tripples and was a dispactcher, but i also like to argue that alot of these arguements people keep staing in the name of common sense and worst case scenario are in alot of ways inpractical and not founded on fact. IMHO The ball will not fail nor will the goose neck lock, nor can the trailer physically come off if properly loaded and even if it does if properly maintained the safety system in place will work flawlessly just like springs do when properly maintained on a tractor trailer. but the chains when used with this system could very well create a more hazardous situation.
Actually in the end the GN's that i have seen come off typically tear the frame at the uprights. They didnt come off the ball. I have seen three seperate cases of this in Montana. Chains worked wonders there.
03-19-2004, 04:38 PM
#90
Originally posted by ddestruel
Top i do believe this has alot to do with tractor trailers because what we are discussing are comercial trailering laws which is what a Gooseneck trailer is defined as being. Therefore the same physical characteristics, laws and pratices are very closely related. Therefore i feel that my statement was entirely appropriate.
Top i do believe this has alot to do with tractor trailers because what we are discussing are comercial trailering laws which is what a Gooseneck trailer is defined as being. Therefore the same physical characteristics, laws and pratices are very closely related. Therefore i feel that my statement was entirely appropriate.
However on the type of trailer this thread is about, the job of stopping the runaway trailer falls on a small break away battery, that may or may not have enough power in it to successfully stop the trailer.
Every time my battery was checked by a State trooper when moving a trailer with electric brakes, they simply pulled the pin on the breakaway switch to see if the brakes would engage as I crept forward. This hardly proves whether the condition of the battery is sufficient to maintain braking power for more than a second or two.
This is one of the reasons chains are supplied with this type of trailer, and have been required for use in some areas although not in every locale.
This should be a no brainier for anyone, it isn't that hard to figure out, that if your trailer has chains, hook em up! you just might save somebody's life!.
This in NO WAY resembles an argument over assault weapons.
The manufacturer of the trailer put safety chains on it for a reason, that reason wasn't just because they felt like adding more costs to their manufacturing overhead.
If you should have a trailer cause a death or damage in a break away situation, and you do not have the chains hooked up that were supplied with it, I guarantee a court will find you at fault and you will pay a very high price for it, whether it is required by law or not.
Any Attorney worth his weight in argument, will able to convince a jury that you are negligent because you didn't spend 2 seconds hooking up your chains.
If you don't believe me, call your insurance company and ask them if you should hook up the chains? Chances are also good your insurance company will find a way not to cover you as well, if they know you didn't hook up your safety chains and you have an accident.
Gut feelings and emotions? ...... I think common sense is the motivating factor here.
Again just my honest opinion.