Tire Balancing Beads
07-29-2004, 09:59 AM
#16
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Re: Racsw
Originally posted by rjohnson
Are the ceramic beads very fine, like Equal, or larger in size, like the Counteract beads?
I tried Counteract about a yr ago and had repeated imbalance below 15-20 mph. Went to Equal with this set of tires and problem was solved. I always figured it was the smaller size (like fine sand for those who have never seen it) that allowed for better static attachment with the Equal.
Any imbalance with the Ceramics? Anyone else tried them or know their size?
RJ
Are the ceramic beads very fine, like Equal, or larger in size, like the Counteract beads?
I tried Counteract about a yr ago and had repeated imbalance below 15-20 mph. Went to Equal with this set of tires and problem was solved. I always figured it was the smaller size (like fine sand for those who have never seen it) that allowed for better static attachment with the Equal.
Any imbalance with the Ceramics? Anyone else tried them or know their size?
RJ
Pretty cool just shaking them in the plastic bag, static charge forms and many of the beads actually start floating in mid air.
I'll install mine this weekend and get back. Others have told me the Dyna beads are working great for them.
07-29-2004, 04:11 PM
#17
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The ceramic beads are round ***** about 0.08 mm dia. They hold a static charge -very- well, and should give you excellent results, as they have with many current customers. If you want to see, try some, then take a few and swirl them around inside of a 3 - 4" plastic jar and watch them adhere to the inside surface. Both Equal and Dyna Beads work on the same exact physics principle, so they really have no performance differences that we have heard.
Now on the other side of the argument, there is a popular rumor out there in amongst the CounterAct users that seem to think that their beads stay glued to one part of the tire once they have found the imbalance point. I will agree that the glass and ceramic beads will both maintain a certain static charge by the action against the rubber, and this is easy to prove. Just carefully dismount a tire and see some of the beads clinging against the inside surface. However, there is not enough of a static charge developed at any point that could possibly maintain 3 - 6 ounces of beads or Equal in a fixed position when the tire is at rest. Trust me when I say this: this static issue has been through the Federal Courts when CounterAct made this claim originally, and they lost the suit because they could not prove to anybody that this theory actually was true. So until somebody proves otherwise, it is assumed, and I share this opinion, that any internal balancing media will fall to the bottom of the tire when the tire/wheel is at rest.
The only normal driving situation we have had where the beads failed to work was on a supercharged Hundai with Low Profile, 18" tires. Three of the tires were fine, one vibrated.
The reason, as I just found out today, was a broken belt in the tire. This was replaced and is now fine again. We have found out that on the Low Profile tires, you may occasionally encounter a lateral imbalance, due to the difficulty of maintaining a consistent tread density and thickness over the extreme width of the tire. Top line tires, like those found on BMW or Mercedes, rarely have this problem, but lower income shoppers who want the look but can't afford the price of a premium Low Profile tire, go with a cheaper grade, where this problem more often occurs. A lateral imbalance is a tire that is either out of round, or heavy on one extreme edge of the tire, contrary to a normal out balance condition which exists primary across the entire width of the tire. The only way this situation can be detected is to use a Coates (or similar) Electronic balancer set to "dyanamic" mode. Then a special distribution of weights is determined to counter balance the inherent "wobble" generated by this imbalance condition.
This probably ay more information that you wanted, and I could go on, but it's best to cut this off here I think.
Give the Dyna Beads a try on one or two front tires some time, and let me know what you think. I'm a big boy, I can take it...
Regards,
Robert
Now on the other side of the argument, there is a popular rumor out there in amongst the CounterAct users that seem to think that their beads stay glued to one part of the tire once they have found the imbalance point. I will agree that the glass and ceramic beads will both maintain a certain static charge by the action against the rubber, and this is easy to prove. Just carefully dismount a tire and see some of the beads clinging against the inside surface. However, there is not enough of a static charge developed at any point that could possibly maintain 3 - 6 ounces of beads or Equal in a fixed position when the tire is at rest. Trust me when I say this: this static issue has been through the Federal Courts when CounterAct made this claim originally, and they lost the suit because they could not prove to anybody that this theory actually was true. So until somebody proves otherwise, it is assumed, and I share this opinion, that any internal balancing media will fall to the bottom of the tire when the tire/wheel is at rest.
The only normal driving situation we have had where the beads failed to work was on a supercharged Hundai with Low Profile, 18" tires. Three of the tires were fine, one vibrated.
The reason, as I just found out today, was a broken belt in the tire. This was replaced and is now fine again. We have found out that on the Low Profile tires, you may occasionally encounter a lateral imbalance, due to the difficulty of maintaining a consistent tread density and thickness over the extreme width of the tire. Top line tires, like those found on BMW or Mercedes, rarely have this problem, but lower income shoppers who want the look but can't afford the price of a premium Low Profile tire, go with a cheaper grade, where this problem more often occurs. A lateral imbalance is a tire that is either out of round, or heavy on one extreme edge of the tire, contrary to a normal out balance condition which exists primary across the entire width of the tire. The only way this situation can be detected is to use a Coates (or similar) Electronic balancer set to "dyanamic" mode. Then a special distribution of weights is determined to counter balance the inherent "wobble" generated by this imbalance condition.
This probably ay more information that you wanted, and I could go on, but it's best to cut this off here I think.
Give the Dyna Beads a try on one or two front tires some time, and let me know what you think. I'm a big boy, I can take it...
Regards,
Robert
07-29-2004, 04:31 PM
#18
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One thing has not been mentioned, tires are not round as manufacturered. Also dual rims cannot be balanced on a spin balancer without a special adaptor that I have never seen.
The large hole in the wheel is pressed and as it shears about half of the hole is untrue, and that is the side that the cone fits in, so no true balance.
Even if properly balanced the tires will not run true as manufacturered. Take the truck to a big truck tire shop and get them trued, just don't watch as they cut the rubber off the tire. They will then run smoothe as silk and last longer. I don't do the rears, just the fronts. Also a tire shop will balance them on the truck by spinnin them up and adding weights to make them spin smoothe.
Of course then you mark them so that if removed they will be replaced in the same position.
Another problem with hub centered wheels is the large hole not tight enough. If this is a problem, loosen them and let them reposition and spin them up to see where you are.
The large hole in the wheel is pressed and as it shears about half of the hole is untrue, and that is the side that the cone fits in, so no true balance.
Even if properly balanced the tires will not run true as manufacturered. Take the truck to a big truck tire shop and get them trued, just don't watch as they cut the rubber off the tire. They will then run smoothe as silk and last longer. I don't do the rears, just the fronts. Also a tire shop will balance them on the truck by spinnin them up and adding weights to make them spin smoothe.
Of course then you mark them so that if removed they will be replaced in the same position.
Another problem with hub centered wheels is the large hole not tight enough. If this is a problem, loosen them and let them reposition and spin them up to see where you are.
08-02-2004, 07:37 PM
#20
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Originally posted by Haulin_in_Dixie
Also dual rims cannot be balanced on a spin balancer without a special adaptor that I have never seen.
Also dual rims cannot be balanced on a spin balancer without a special adaptor that I have never seen.
The tire shop I am working at now has that adaptor. I have balanced a few dually tires with it. Seems to work out ok.
As far as the balance beads, I have 4 oz. of conteract in each tire. So far it works good. When I hit a big pot hole or rut they vibrate a little, but it goes away real quick.
08-17-2004, 10:20 AM
#21
I read that new tires should be run on a spin balancer first, to determine how much product is needed. The shops I talked to want the same money to do that as the regular balancing, so I don't see any initial savings. Also, the Duallie packs show 4 to 5 oz. packets. I want to run 19.5's on my truck, so they recommend 6 to 8 oz. Any suggestions?? None of the tires I demounted from the rims I want to use had more than 4.5 oz. on the rims, so would 5-oz. be enough?? I am thinking of total cost here. I know the new tires will be different than the take offs.
Does anyone running 19.5's use these products?
Haulin -- roughly how much should I expect to pay for having the tires trued? Why not do the rear wheels also? Cost? Effectiveness?
Does anyone running 19.5's use these products?
Haulin -- roughly how much should I expect to pay for having the tires trued? Why not do the rear wheels also? Cost? Effectiveness?
08-17-2004, 11:38 AM
#22
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I'm getting new wheels here soon but keeping my current tires (315/75/16's). Should I just use however much weight I have on there now as a guide or should I wait and have them spin balanced and then go from there?
08-17-2004, 02:00 PM
#23
Registered User
Not an exact science. just don't want WAY too much. I would not vary too far from recommended amounts based on tire size....and on low side if not much weight there now. Enough is needed to handle future imbalance as tires wear.
From my expirience with two different brands, this approach has worked well.
RJ
From my expirience with two different brands, this approach has worked well.
RJ
08-17-2004, 02:06 PM
#24
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I think as long as you use the recommended amount you won't need a spin balance and will be fine. It's when you get into severely out of balance tires that may require more than the recommended amount that a spin balance will come in handy. I've been using beads for about five years on numerous rigs with no spin balance, the recommended amount has always worked for me.
08-17-2004, 04:26 PM
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Zulusafari
Although you didn't state the entire tire size, 19.5" tires start out at 6 oz, and go up from there. That's a big tire.
19.5" anyhow are into the 6 - 10 oz class regardless. If it's a very good quality tire, the weight will be more consistent, but if it's a BFG or equiv, there is likely to be a wide variance.
I would order 8 oz for each tire, plus an extra bag in case one or more needs extra. You can order 6 oz/tire, but I think you're going too light. Another thought: Order enough to get the job done on the first order. If you find you need more, the UPS charge will probably be the same cost as another bag.
At any rate, that's my suggestion.
BigBlue,
4 oz per tire should be enough if they are quality tires. Order one extra bag so you have extra in case you have one that needs a little more counterbalance.
To All: Innovative Balancing has made some changes. They have lowered the price on everything 4 oz and up. They have also made the 4 oz. size "per bag", instead of a "4 pack", which should help for various reasons. The Duallie Six-Packs have an additional knock-off on top of the 4 oz price, which saves you even more.
Regards,
Robert
Although you didn't state the entire tire size, 19.5" tires start out at 6 oz, and go up from there. That's a big tire.
19.5" anyhow are into the 6 - 10 oz class regardless. If it's a very good quality tire, the weight will be more consistent, but if it's a BFG or equiv, there is likely to be a wide variance.
I would order 8 oz for each tire, plus an extra bag in case one or more needs extra. You can order 6 oz/tire, but I think you're going too light. Another thought: Order enough to get the job done on the first order. If you find you need more, the UPS charge will probably be the same cost as another bag.
At any rate, that's my suggestion.
BigBlue,
4 oz per tire should be enough if they are quality tires. Order one extra bag so you have extra in case you have one that needs a little more counterbalance.
To All: Innovative Balancing has made some changes. They have lowered the price on everything 4 oz and up. They have also made the 4 oz. size "per bag", instead of a "4 pack", which should help for various reasons. The Duallie Six-Packs have an additional knock-off on top of the 4 oz price, which saves you even more.
Regards,
Robert
08-17-2004, 04:31 PM
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A little clarification:
I didn't mean to imply that a BFG was not a good quality tire, it is. Generally, the bigger and more aggressive the tread, the more difficult it is for the manufacturer to maintain consistent tread density and thickness over the entire surface, hence balancing variations between individual tires are greater. That's also why some even get their tires "shaved" to help make the tire more round, and therefore more vibration free.
Robert
I didn't mean to imply that a BFG was not a good quality tire, it is. Generally, the bigger and more aggressive the tread, the more difficult it is for the manufacturer to maintain consistent tread density and thickness over the entire surface, hence balancing variations between individual tires are greater. That's also why some even get their tires "shaved" to help make the tire more round, and therefore more vibration free.
Robert
08-17-2004, 05:23 PM
#27
Originally posted by racsw
A little clarification:
I didn't mean to imply that a BFG was not a good quality tire, it is. Generally, the bigger and more aggressive the tread, the more difficult it is for the manufacturer to maintain consistent tread density and thickness over the entire surface, hence balancing variations between individual tires are greater. That's also why some even get their tires "shaved" to help make the tire more round, and therefore more vibration free.
Robert
A little clarification:
I didn't mean to imply that a BFG was not a good quality tire, it is. Generally, the bigger and more aggressive the tread, the more difficult it is for the manufacturer to maintain consistent tread density and thickness over the entire surface, hence balancing variations between individual tires are greater. That's also why some even get their tires "shaved" to help make the tire more round, and therefore more vibration free.
Robert
I am looking at 225/70R19.5 tires. Specifically, Hankook DH01's. I haven't found anything negative about Hankook tires, but I am concerned about their quality, since the price is so low. Tread looks about right, and when I physically compared to Goodyear G124's, the Hankooks looked comparable to superior in finish and manufacturing. Just a visual observation of the outside of the tire. I know next to nothing about either tire's actual construction. Local dealer could try to sell me the more expensive tires in his lineup, but he really had great things to say about the Hankook's!
08-17-2004, 06:31 PM
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zulusafari,
Ahhhh..., now that I know the full tire size, I see they're listed at:
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/chart.htm
These should have 6 oz per tire. With this new info, I would order 4 - 6oz bags plus 1 - 8 oz bag in case a couple of the tires need more, but go with the 6 oz first.
On the tire shaving, I personally can't answer your question, but I remember a post from someone on this subject in DTR that details this process. Hopefully, another member can answer these questions.
To check the tires for Out of Round, you will (or should...) mount the tire/rim on a balancer and spin them. You will see an out of round tire immediately. If the tires are matched-marked, anotherwords they have a colored dot somewhere on the bead, then position the dot at the valve stem.
Hope that helps,
Robert
Ahhhh..., now that I know the full tire size, I see they're listed at:
http://www.innovativebalancing.com/chart.htm
These should have 6 oz per tire. With this new info, I would order 4 - 6oz bags plus 1 - 8 oz bag in case a couple of the tires need more, but go with the 6 oz first.
On the tire shaving, I personally can't answer your question, but I remember a post from someone on this subject in DTR that details this process. Hopefully, another member can answer these questions.
To check the tires for Out of Round, you will (or should...) mount the tire/rim on a balancer and spin them. You will see an out of round tire immediately. If the tires are matched-marked, anotherwords they have a colored dot somewhere on the bead, then position the dot at the valve stem.
Hope that helps,
Robert
08-17-2004, 06:41 PM
#30
OK. I will order seven 6-oz. bags. I have a DRW 3500, plus the spare. I will get some extra as well. I have a bubble balancer that surprisingly fits the 19.5's wheels, but I think you are referring to a spin balancer. Would the truck's front hub work for spinning, with a dial indicator mounted for runout?
I have a DRW 3500, plus the spare. I will get some extra as well. I have a bubble balancer that surprisingly fits the 19.5's wheels, but I think you are referring to a spin balancer. Would the truck's front hub work for spinning, with a dial indicator mounted for runout?