StakeMan

Maybe something stronger than beer. ;D

Don M

[quote author=StakeMan link=board=7;threadid=7241;start=15#69532 date=1037745420]<br>Don,<br>Are you saying that 3x the surface area is worse? <br><br>Someobdy better tell the Mitchells that multiple disk clutches won't hold. <br>[/quote]<br><br>Hey StakeMan,<br><br>All things in life must follow basic laws. The multi-disk clutchs for standard transmission and autos can work if the laws are all followed.<br>Appartently they are being followed when it comes to holding power in pulling clutches. Safety is another issue though. Not from clutch design alone, but from the power these things are holding and the weight they pull. I complained about safety for the last year and finally I see some rules are being implemented. Lets hope some of them are enforced. Clutch explosions are very nasty, ask Don Garlits who had part of his foot blown off when one exploded. Im such a believer in clutch safety that I have a 1/4 inch thick plate bolted to the bell housing and starter bolts area that will protect my feet if the thing ever blows up on me. If you have multiple disks with floater plates the extra weight and rotating mass is much higher and the potential for troubles is much greater if it ever blows up when compared to the single disk type. You simply have more crap flying around. Another trouble is the syncros are having a much harder life trying to slow down all the weight and syncronize it all together to make fast shifts and lety the syncros live a long and healthy life. Lets dont talk about the unsprung hubs that transfer a ton of vibrations. Oopps we are off topic.<br><br>Back on topic: the multi-disk type of tq convertor with lower line pressure or clamp load is not the design I would use if I was the given the task. Even if we disagree on what is optimal does not mean we cant have a discussion on what we all feel is right and wrong with the design of any thingy on here or elsewhere.<br><br>Now, in my opinion the friction material that ATS uses is less than perfect...any takers on that?<br><br>Don~<br><br>Gonzo, Maxwell House is better than Folgers. Folgers tends to give me less internal friction when it comes time to well...you know.<br><br><br><br>

TPilaske

[quote author=StakeMan link=board=7;threadid=7241;start=30#69546 date=1037747249]<br>Maybe something stronger than beer. ;D<br>[/quote]<br><br>yep, i'm thinking some Jack &amp; Coke would work.... ;D<br><br>Tony

admin

Yes, please hit Jack on the head with a bottle of Coke.

TPilaske

**launches 12 pack of coke at Jack**

StakeMan

The way you say it Don, the ATS triple disk shouldn't work. But it does.

Don M

[quote author=StakeMan link=board=7;threadid=7241;start=30#69553 date=1037747579]<br>The way you say it Don, the ATS triple disk shouldn't work. But it does.<br>[/quote]<br><br>No, it will work, just like the old drum brakes from the 60's on the front axles of cars...they worked but, Man-they were not optimal at all. Sometimes trying to build a better mousetrap only adds to the hassle of catching mice later. I still want to see a very high HP truck run with an ATS tranny installed. Eric McBride was the only guy I knew of running one and he never used shocking power from Nitrous like Jetpilot, Lawrence, Jim Fuller and Mark Flinn use. The highest HP trucks still run other brands of trannies that are proven on the track and dyno to hold up. Katdiesel drag races his truck quite often and I watched him kick the pants off the rest of the pack here in Dallas a few months ago. Once we see an ATS truck make some of the higher HP numbers at the events and have the trannies last, things may change.<br><br>Don~ <br><br><br><br>

Strick-9

Don,<br><br>You're doing a pretty good job of explaining yourself.<br><br>I just stumbled across this thread and recently read it start to finish. I'm glad someone finally brought up wet vs. dry clutches. A while back, someone brought up wide tires and dragsters.<br><br>We all know that wide tires work well for dragsters. But these clutches don't operate in that enviroment. Would you run 18 inch wide slicks on your truck in a rainstorm? Would any of you do that with your family in the truck? Why not?<br><br>Wouldn't you be afraid of hydroplaning? The same concept is at work during TC clutch apply. The clutch lining is in effect hydroplaning as it tries to apply against the front cover. The piston must apply an enormous amount of force to squeeze out all the oil. Until the oil is squeezed out, slipping occurs.<br><br>So for the companies that still use a single disc clutch, adding another clutch lining is silly.<br><br>Torque converters have actually been designed AND tested with smaller linings than factory and have proven to be stronger. But from a marketing standpoint, those torque converters weren't released because who wants to buy a torque converter with LESS lining. We've all been conditioned for so long that MORE is better that we fail to stop and truly analyze the world around us. (the tire on wet road example, for instance)<br><br>Clutch packs are in fact stronger than single clutches of the same size, force applied and friction material. With a single clutch disc, as we add more clutch surface area, the pressure (force per square inch) is reduced. In a clutch pack, we maintain an equal pressure on each clutch lining and simply add more of them. So we add more lining without sacrificing pressure.<br><br>Along with that design strategy, you have to take in other aspects of the design. Yes, it is stronger once applied. But as the piston is moving toward the front cover, three times the amount of oil has to be squeezed out. During this time, the clutch slips. From a consumer standpoint, the shift feels soft and not harsh. <br><br>Also, multi-disc converters are not rebuildable. The tabs (whether round or square) will be beaten into the front cover. When the converter is cut open the front cover (expensive part) must be discarded and replaced. <br><br>People can tell you they are smarter than the Ford engineers. They can say that they make steel plates out of a stronger material than the Ford engineers chose to. As you make the steel plates harder, they abuse the front cover more. The steel plates constantly bang back and forth as the engine fires. It's called engine harmonics and there's nothing we can do to prevent it. It works like an impact wrench.<br><br>With harder steel plates, instead of the steel plates absorbing the impact, small grooves are beaten into the front cover. Once a groove is started the steel plates can no longer travel forward and rearward freely to apply and release properly. The clutch will then drag and fail.<br><br>Every design has both positive and negative attributes. The informed consumer must find out ALL sides of the story to make a proper decision. That's what these forums can help us with. The ability to learn the truth and be able to look past the marketing and sales pitches.<br><br>Okay, I'm done preaching now. I didn't mean to interrupt Don and banshee. You two may continue now. <br><br>-Chris<br><br><br>

StakeMan

[quote author=Don M link=board=7;threadid=7241;start=30#69565 date=1037748592]<br>[quote author=StakeMan link=board=7;threadid=7241;start=30#69553 date=1037747579]<br>The way you say it Don, the ATS triple disk shouldn't work. But it does.<br>[/quote]<br><br>No, it will work, just like the old drum brakes from the 60's on the front axles of cars...they worked but, Man-they were not optimal at all. Sometimes trying to build a better mousetrap only adds to the hassle of catching mice later. I still want to see a very high HP truck run with an ATS tranny installed. Eric McBride was the only guy I knew of running one and he never used shocking power from Nitrous like Jetpilot, Lawrence, Jim Fuller and Mark Flinn use. The highest HP trucks still run other brands of trannies that are proven on the track and dyno to hold up. Katdiesel drag races his truck quite often and I watched him kick the pants off the rest of the pack here in Dallas a few months ago. Once we see an ATS truck make some of the higher HP numbers at the events and have the trannies last, things may change.<br><br>Don~ <br><br><br><br><br>[/quote]<br><br>Mike is running 12.5's in the 1/4 with NOS.<br>Eric McBride fried a clutch pack. I think he still had the factory clutch pack. The TC was still in good shape. There are many others. What else do you want?

Don M

Hey StakeMan,<br><br>Sounds good to me. Is that it, the number of examples I mean?<br><br>Don~

StakeMan

NO. There are plenty of trucks in the 13's here. Even a duramax in the 13's with a triple disk converter.

Don M

Still sounds good. Im not trying to doubt the ability of the convertor to hold a 12-13 second truck. Depending on weight, the power to go those speeds is about 475-550HP. The Duramax needs even less power simply because they are very light when compared to our heavy Dodge/Cummins in the same trim. <br><br>The triple disk convertor using lower line pressure and the type of clutch material they run will exhibit a higher than normal wear rate when compared to a design with a single disk and higher pressure in nearly all instances in high power applications.<br><br>Don~

Stefan

StakeMan,<br><br>I just have one question, why the heck would ATS install a stock clutch pack in Eric's truck after he drove all the way from Indiana to Colorado. He supposed to be sponsored meaning getting the best you have to offer, or testing something that is supposed to be better in theory. Everyone knows that the stock clutch packs won't hold, that why we upgrade them.

admin

Ok, well so much for the technical discussion. Stefan, if you want the answer, I'm sure you could call ATS or ask Stake in a PM.

I'm here to have fun. That's why I started this site, yet the past few days haven't been fun at all and if you guys think I'm about to let 1 1/2 years worth of extremely hard work on this site degrade into usenet, you're crazy. I'm going to say this one last time guys, keep the wars away from the site. Stay on the technical and on topic discussion. Even friendly ribbing is fine, as long as it's all in fun. If not, you'll find some members disappearing.

I don't care what you think about it at this point, call it censorship or whatever, I don't really care. This site WILL NOT degrade into a tranny war site. It's like a bunch of kids looking for an argument. Some of you haven't posted for months, yet when something big happens, people come flying out of the woodwork. Why? I can tell you it's not to discuss the technical information, or to enjoy each others comany and have friendly disagreements. I'll tell you why, it's to get involved in the wars.

I've had enough, and it's not going to be that way around here. We have too many good members that come on this site looking for good information. They're gonna get the good information. If people can't learn to get their point across without sounding like children, then you'll be treated like children and you'll be gone.

Normally, I'm not so stern, but for some, it's the only way for them to get the picture. I hope I was clear this time.

Jack

Shovelhead

Thanks Chris, Don, &amp; Don.
I was actually learning about tranny stuff there for awhile.
Good thread so far.