I haven't seen any discussion on this one yet at all, so I thought I would get the ball rolling.

At the ATS (transmission) event last Feb, the president of ATS (turbo) spoke about the upcoming products that the company is developing. If you didn't know it, these are the same people that make the ATS exhaust manifolds for our trucks.

Anyway, they are set to release a ball-bearing turbo for the CTD!! The speech mentioned a release date of June (best guess this far out), and a street price of about $2200.

So what's the big deal? How about instant spool up in a turbo that will support 500hp? How about durability that exceeds any other BB turbo on the market?

Most importantly, this turbo will maintain a positive pressure ratio all the way up through 45psi or so. That means that backpressure is always less than boost! That means EFFICIENCY!

This turbo is supposed to be far more durable than the BB turbos from Garrett and Turbonetics. This, because it uses a much more sophisticated BB cartridge that is a lot stronger and heavier duty.

Granted, all these are the claims of the manufacturer and its President. All are unsubstantiated thus far. But the possibility is pretty exciting!

Imagine a turbo that spools like an HY35-9 but support 500hp with nice cool EGTs. This could be a great alternative to the VGT turbos and their complexity.

Also imagine how wonderful of a primary turbo this could/would be in a twins setup. You would lose a little spoolup in the twins app, but it would still spool hard enough to get you into the Primary in a hurry!

Pair this sucker with a TST competition box (which works off delta boost) and you would have a wicked setup with almost NO smoke!


For the record, the line forms behind me


Justin

 

As far as the durability is concerened the ball bering cartridge has not proved itself yet. Hopefully this one will be different. As for the price I spent less than that on my twins that are less than 1 to 1 (boost/backpressure) at 70psi and have good spoolup. Ball bering technology is by far better than the floating berings that our Holsets have, no doubt that a ball bering charger can be made bigger with faster spoolup than any Holset. Durability and price will be the only issues with this new charger. Hopefully everything will work out good and it will be a great turbo for people wanting to run large single chargers.

Horace

 

I heard that BB turbos surge easily as well. Wonder what they are going to do to keep the surge down and also not "bark" the turbo.

BatteringRam,

Something to think about is the flow rate of the BB turbo. If the BB can flow as much air as a street twin setup like a HX35/3B then it would be an interesting upgrade. Also, spool up time for you isn't the same as those with upgraded autos or live at high altitude.

If it can flow 1000 cfm or more, spool like mad, and hold up to daily abuse it would have a market.

 

I really wonder what happened to the gas cushion bearing turbos that were in discussion/development some years ago. This would be a very preferrable solution imho, since there is no oil to coke, and the drag of these bearings is incredibly low.
I don't know how much of the spoolup delay is caused by bearing drag and how much by the inertia of the components. (especially since an oiled ball bearing will also have substantial drag at high speeds since the ***** have to "wade" through the oil)

AlpineRAM

 

I never said they couldn't flow lots of air or spoolup quickly... I just said that the two main concerns are durability and price.

Horace

 

I was over at a local shop today checking on using their dyno and they let me look at a couple garret ball bearing turbos. He had a t71 ball bearing one and when I spun it by hand it turned for about 20 seconds. Using the same force I spun a standard turbo and it spun for about 2-3 secs. Looking at using one for my primary. They told me abot $2500 for t-91 size [big] Good thing is, they told me you can get full maps from garret for whatever size you want. Anybody tried the new double ball bearing garret on a ctd? Tim

 

Something to think about is the flow rate of the BB turbo. If the BB can flow as much air as a street twin setup like a HX35/3B then it would be an interesting upgrade

Key word here is ...IF! If a streetable single will flow as much as a 35/3B then it will support 675 HP!

A 91MM is more than twice the price of a Big Brother or a HT4B, it better do good! yes a 91 is a really nice turbo but it all costs$$$$

Jim

 

Hey Jim they did not have a 91 there so I didnt get to see it. How does it compare size wise compared to a big brother? If I remember correctly you said yours was a real tight fit. Thanks Tim

 

About the size of your steering wheel

 

My wallet doesn't need to see chit like this!

 

Hey Jim they did not have a 91 there so I didnt get to see it. How does it compare size wise compared to a big brother? If I remember correctly you said yours was a real tight fit

The 91 is the same physical size, compressor wheel ect just don't know about the housings. I could make the B/B fit better or lets say easier but it would require a spacer between the little charger and manifold, the idea is you have to get the flange away from the manifold so you can stuff the big turbo in the hole without hitting. Right now I'm at 1/2" clearence on the frame, firewall and manifold.....no issues yet.

Jim

 

Stake, you were at the ATS event, so I am going to ask you to cross-check my facts. Isnt this what the president had to say?

IMHO, $2200 is pretty cheap for a BB turbo of this size and level of development. Especially when priced next to a B1 @$1600. I don't think the compressor will quite flow what a full B1 will, but I would take the spoolup in return.

Again, all we can do thus far is guess-- no one has bought or broken one yet.

IIRC, this is a ceramic BB turbo, not an oil bath. It *should* have less high-rpm drag than some other designs.

I'm with horace on the Durability and Price issues. At this point, the twins setups like a 40/3b are proven quantities. They are stone-axe reliable when setup right, and can be done for under $3K pretty easily. While they won't deliver *instant* spoolup, they do support ridiculous amounts of fueling with little smoke.

Sure, a 3b is far from the most sophisticated charger around, but it plain works and lasts, and does it for cheap. That's really what's most important to a lot of us.


What would REALLY be the shiznit is a dual BB setup on the primary and secondary. Somehow the idea of 1500cfm that spools in a blink appeals to me.


Alpine, those air-cushion turbos really seemed like the way to go.... Whatever happen to them? Did they give up on the development? I heard the main obstacle was getting the cooling needed-- the air just wouldn't take enough heat away....

Justin

 

HOHN,

I did not hear his speech. sorry.

You don't think it would flow more than a B1?
Does anyone know how much a B1 flows?
I am guessing about 800 cfm. Hopefully the BB turbo will flow that or more.

 

Well, the guy said that this will support 500hp. A full B1 will will clear 500hp pretty easily. With a B1, the limit is how tight the turbine housing is and how small the wheel is. The compressor side will support over 500hp.

So I surmise that the B1 has a larger compressor than the ATS BB turbo.

There is the possibility that the BB turbo has a tight turbine section, and that is what limits it to 500hp. The guy said that they basically went to the largest compressor they could and still keep the instant spoolup.

I think 800CFM is a good guesstimate for B1 flow on the compressor side.

Maybe a call to Kurt or Ken could confirm this?

Justin

 

Anyone heard anything new?

Justin