I think K&N says clean them at 50,000miles or some ungodly number like that. I have always done mine around 20,000-25,000. They say they work better dirty, but around here they must get dirtier quicker. I definately clean mine when it starts being brown instead of redish-purple. I've got a pre-filer on mine now, and it's stayed very clean. I just blow the prefilter out from the inside with low pressure every oil change or so.

 

Man this is a worn out subject! I used to run K&N for years on other motors (still do) and NEVER had any trouble. I think they are great filters and they are the company that literaly started all this aftermarket filter craze. So I'm sure they know how to make a good filter. If you remember, their add was "You'll get more air with a K&N than running no filter at all". Doing this by creating a dead airspace with smooth entrance into the intake. And A race engine can go through much worse conditions than a street motor see's its entire life. What do you think your engines oil would look like after going 500+ miles at around 8,500 rpm, non stop? I had a drop in K&N in my truck and the only reason I dont run one now is because the aFe Megacannon flows more. Lowering EGT's thats it. Yes I know Scotty makes a great system but I already spent the money and I'm not unhappy with the Megacannon. Never did I get oil on my turbo or any dirt in the intake tube. I suppose if anyone did they may have not oiled correctly, didnt seat the housing good, or had a bogus filter. Dont know. I've also written before that back in the Gulf war, America's helicopters couldnt run in the high fine sandy conditions so they went to K&N to fabricate intake filters to keep them running clean. I'm sure they suck more air than the Cummins.
As for the Cummins statement, I read it and it doesnt say anywhere about K&N voiding warranty. If you are going to do any improvements on your engine everyone will agree that stock intake is a big restriction. If you worry about warranty with your dealer then keep the stock system handy for quick change. It takes about 10 minutes.

 

[quote author=KATOOM link=board=7;threadid=20616;start=15#msg194253 date=1065585943]
Man this is a worn out subject! I used to run K&N for years on other motors (still do) and NEVER had any trouble. I think they are great filters and they are the company that literaly started all this aftermarket filter craze. So I'm sure they know how to make a good filter. If you remember, their add was "You'll get more air with a K&N than running no filter at all". Doing this by creating a dead airspace with smooth entrance into the intake. And A race engine can go through much worse conditions than a street motor see's its entire life. What do you think your engines oil would look like after going 500+ miles at around 8,500 rpm, non stop? I had a drop in K&N in my truck and the only reason I dont run one now is because the aFe Megacannon flows more. Lowering EGT's thats it. Yes I know Scotty makes a great system but I already spent the money and I'm not unhappy with the Megacannon. Never did I get oil on my turbo or any dirt in the intake tube. I suppose if anyone did they may have not oiled correctly, didnt seat the housing good, or had a bogus filter. Dont know. I've also written before that back in the Gulf war, America's helicopters couldnt run in the high fine sandy conditions so they went to K&N to fabricate intake filters to keep them running clean. I'm sure they suck more air than the Cummins.
As for the Cummins statement, I read it and it doesnt say anywhere about K&N voiding warranty. If you are going to do any improvements on your engine everyone will agree that stock intake is a big restriction. If you worry about warranty with your dealer then keep the stock system handy for quick change. It takes about 10 minutes.
[/quote]

I don't think it's a settled argument... I know of a filtration media test that BFG Aerospace was contracted to perform where the K&N media performed VERY poorly until it "loaded up." A good friend of mine did the test (he's an AE, but was contracted by Baldwin to do the test in BFG labs). He couldn't give me the official results, but he was a big factor in my decision not to run K&Ns on the street... so I know it's not just a bunch of BS that a K&N is a poor filter. I think it's interesting that smoe people have had long engine lifespans with them on - but it's dificult to argue with Blackstone analyses on both my truck and 2 of our race cars that both showed higher silicon (similar to other people here).

 

Three days after I put a K&N RE-0880 on my truck, there was oil & dust & gunk on the turbo blades and inside rubber. That was enough for me; off it came. This was factory-oiled, out of the box. I'll sell it to anyone for very, very cheap, only 55 miles on it.

 

[quote author=Tartarus link=board=7;threadid=20616;start=15#msg194340 date=1065621214]
Three days after I put a K&N RE-0880 on my truck, there was oil & dust & gunk on the turbo blades and inside rubber. That was enough for me; off it came. This was factory-oiled, out of the box. I'll sell it to anyone for very, very cheap, only 55 miles on it.
[/quote]
8) how cheap is cheap? ;D
DM01
PS where do you send the K&N filters if they break? my stock replacememnt did and I want a NEW one.

 

Its funny how when you can see the dirt its a problem. IE. the K&N or similar filter will allow some oil vapours to collect fine particles on the intake system. But, all that run the Big Hoaky Air Filter don't see the dirt. Why? Because there is no oil vapour to collect the particles.

The most common cause of increased Si content in oil is either a perforated filter or a poor seal at the inlet. You also have to understand the dirt is entrained in the air in Parts per Million-PPM. More flow and you get more millions to be contaminated. If paper filter flows 50% less than the "other" filter, then you may or may not see an incremental increase in the dirt content with the "other" filter. Stands to reason.

I had over 250,000 miles on my first Cummins with a K&N and the engine was still in great shape. I think some owners are a little too puckered by adding multiple filtration systems to the oil and air systems only to trade it in, in 50,000 miles. IMHO :

J-eh

 

I have a K&N drop in filter and the inside of my turbo hose and vanes looks like the day it came off the showroom!! The filter seals just fine and doesn't let a speck of dirt through.
Why do people have their tightie whiteies in a twist over this??

 

Hey Tartarus, just wondering but did you ever check to make sure you put the filter in correctly? I'm mean that in the nicest way to. No put down intended. When installing filters in the STOCK box guys have been know to put a gob of grease around the filter to keep the lame stock air box from leaking. Its not a good setup, that is one reason why aftermarket is popular, better sealing. And I just have to ask what kind of conditions are you putting your truck through to see dust and oil in 55 MILES! Thats hardly going down the road. Maybe you should look for a major leak or tear in the filter. No filter sucks that bad.

Lil Dog, you added some great points to the subject. Good info.

dieselgeek, I'm not saying your friend is not telling you the whole story but why cant you be told the official results?

Not sticking up for K&N here, but I hate to see people get on a ban wagon for the wrong reasons.

 

Every time this topic comes up, there's always a great debate. Dodge/Crysler/Cummins says not to use a K&N. Of course they don't. They don't want you to use anything but a factory replacement filter. They don't want you to put EZ's or Comps on either, but that doesn't stop many people. I've had K&N's on every truck i've owned since 1992. Never had a problem. If you want one, get one. If you don't like them, don't get one. It's that simple.

 

Gosh, I think I put it on right. But let me make sure. You spread the grease all over the inside of the filter and the filter connection to the hose, right? To catch all that dirt that's getting through?

;D Naw, just playing with you guys.

My wife made the mistake of buying a K&N for her Toyota Tacoma last summer. Same problems, reddish oil and clots of dirt on the intake throat after a couple of weeks. I mean -clots-, same kind I saw among the layered fines. Nothing entrained in the air in the parts-per-million. Parts-per-dozen, maybe, but not ppm.

On the CTD, I run a 4" stainless steel tube between the cone filter and the turbo hose, held together by six clamps. I've got an electric blower that forces cool air from hood scoops down onto the filter assembly. The Tacoma has a clip system that we reinforce with a gel adhesive. There were no leaks, I'd guarantee it. First thing we thought of.

We have to be careful because of the conditions we drive in. We travel thousands of miles on dirt roads in the deserts of Utah and Nevada, and fines and alkali dust are a big problem. (At 45 mph, we can throw out mile-long rooster tails.) That's why, if a filter's bad, it'll show up quickly. I've clogged a BHAF in a thousand miles, but I've also taken the filter apart and done swipe tests on the inside filter medium, and it's been clean.

I've been over both K&N's with an VLO imaging system we have at work. It allowed me to magnify the filters and vary the light intensity, color, and other characteristics. I can tell you that both filters had inconsistancies that amounted to large holes in which there were -no- "invisible cotton filaments supporting oil film in suspension", as K&N has claimed many times. I looked at my oiled gauze AFE filter and the AFE Proguard-7 using the same VLO. The inconsistancies were far less in the AFE, and I couldn't find any at all in the PG-7. I went through the trouble because I was angry about spending forty-odd bucks on a filter that was busy clogging my intercooler after 55 miles. I sent a civil letter to K&N. They didn't reply.

You could argue that these two filters had manufacturing defects. Possibly, but that doesn't make me want to recommend K&N. You could argue that we're seeing more dirt because it's entrained in oil. Possibly, but that doesn't do much for my intercooler, does it? Or my boost gauge fitting, or my grid heaters, or water injector nozzles, etc. You could argue that it's our extreme driving conditions that is contributing to filter failure. Possibly, but we don't see the same problems in the oiled gauze AFE, or the oiled gauze & poly layered AFE PG7.

Sorry this post is so long. Honestly, I don't know how I could reach any other conclusion than what I have. Get over K&N. Find another solution. And I don't wear whites. ;D

 

[quote author=KATOOM link=board=7;threadid=20616;start=15#msg194668 date=1065666057]

dieselgeek, I'm not saying your friend is not telling you the whole story but why cant you be told the official results?
[/quote]

My friend was my college roommate at Embry-Riddle in Daytona FL for 2 years. He graduated and works for BFG aerospace in Minneapolis - he did the test as part of his job and his company was under contract to not release any results... I know, sounds a little too secret - but if you knew him, you'd understand. He has worked on some cool projects - his group submitted an air filter intake design to Chrysler for the ISB trucks, but he says they went with a much lower-cost design... I saw an Autocad drawing of this intake, which would have used a cylindrical, cartridge type filter.

his test was to run a vacuum on the intake side of the media, and they sucked air/sand particles of varying sizes. They measured the particle quantity and size that passed through the media. His comment was, "The K&N filters poorly but flows well until it starts to load up..."

After that we started sending oil samples into Blackstons for my truck & 2 race cars in town, all noting increased silicates. Since sand doesn't seem good for bearings, I stopped using K&N on the street vehicles.

My logic could be flawed, who knows...! I appreciate the polite banter on this site, lots of nice guys on here.

-scott

 

I do have to agree on one point.. And that is that the quality of the K&N product has hit the dumper in the last some odd years. From their initial products being very specific applications and close quality control to being able to purchase the filters at the corner store has hurt thier quality... No question.

This is where companies like AFE have picked up the gauntlet and ran with it. I personally will be purchasing AFE instead of K&N in the future for this reason, just for the record.

( I too am proud of the group here by staying to task and not throwing the mud. Good job.. )

J-eh

 

Hey I hope didnt offend anyone by asking borderline stupid questions but I dont know anyone here personally and you dont know unless you ask, right? From reading the few posts here I'm sure everyone has some smarts. But I just want to point a few things out here.

Tartarus: For the kind of and as much dirt as you see, you should be running two oil filters and changing oil frequently. I'm sure you do though. As for plugging the intercooler or injectors, ect., I dont see that happening from the little amount of oil on these filters. Run an exhaust brake and you'll see goop in the motor. Plus did you know that oil will push past the oil seals on the turbo at idle but the only result is a little smoking when it burns away. I dont see the issue about oil on turbo blades anyways. How much could we be talking about here? Besides these impellers spin at over 150,000 rpm stock! And they are running in the hundereds of degrees in temperature. Not to mention the compression blades are inside the housing and the side of the blade you do see is the trailing egde not the leading edge (working side). I do like the cold intake setup though.

dieselgeek: No sand or dirt will get to the bearings unless you pour it into the crankcase. At the most it will score the cylinder walls and cause oil consumtion and loss of cylinder pressure, ring wear and a whole bad list of problems.

Lil Dog: I do agree with you when you say K&N seems to be opening it self up to the market so much they are cheaping themselves. But I still dont belive they are junk. Maybe they need to improve on customer relations (ie. Tartarus) to see what is going on out there? It doesnt matter anyway I guess. I dont run one on my truck but if you do great. If you dont great. I will say though if your running the stock intake they are **** to leaks, no matter what you run.

Hey it was fun talking with you guys!!! ;D

 

[quote author=KATOOM link=board=7;threadid=20616;start=15#msg194748 date=1065674471]

As for plugging the intercooler or injectors, ect., I dont see that happening from the little amount of oil on these filters. Run an exhaust brake and you'll see goop in the motor. [/quote]

KATOOM,

A little off topic, but do you care to expand on your comments regarding goop from an exhaust brake??? Interested to hear your thoughts.... Thanks. Could also PM it to me if ya like.

 

Dr. Evil, the "goop" I was refering to happens because of the way the exhaust brake works. By simply not allowing the exhaust to escape causing back pressure in the engine. I'm sure we all know this. Well with the trapped exhaust is all the black stuff you see in your tail pipe or on your trailer if you have one. That stuff (trying to keep it simple because its late and I'm tired) will cover the IAT sensor and MAP sensor with a wet soot. And the boost port some of us tap into is right between these two, but it doesnt seem to be effected or your gauge. This is allowed by the overlap in the exhaust and intake valves. Some have tried to relocate the IAT (the one it affects the most) and some have replaced it with new ones saying a dirty IAT sensor causes low power and higher fuel comsumption. You can clean it easily but from experience, the situation happens fast. Like days not months.
So that was my comparison to a little oil from the filter to the goop covering crude from a exhaust brake was my point.
And off the topic, even though I just made exhaust brakes sounds like they are bad, I wouldnt drive or pull without one. Hope I helped in any way.