Sitting here thinking about it, I think I may have an answer. If you're towing hard, there's lots of extra heat going into the engine bay froom the ratiator, exhaust system, and the engine itself. There's certainly more heat coming off those parts and it's got to be going somewhere. Maybe underhood temps are getting 100 to 150 degrees above outside air in that situation. Then you would see a 250 degree drop in EGTs.

 

[quote author=Bart Timothy link=board=7;threadid=16168;start=15#156531 date=1057341208]<br>1) What I asked to see was hard, empirical facts and not unproven theory or customer reports and opinions, which by the way, isn't universally unanimous in these large EGT reductions.<br><br>2) empitical data air intake systems I've seen has been Joe's dyno tests and manufacture's rated flow data. Those tests obviously don't take into account many real world factors, but they are at least done in a controlled enviroment.<br><br>3) Manufactures and dealers usually always make unrealistic claims for their products. For example, Volant claims a 25 hp increase over stock by using their system. Are we supposed to believe that?<br>[/quote]<br><br>1) Perhaps maybe you missed the 6th message in this thread where I stated that AFE'S OWN TESTS showed the original Scotty I flowed over 1000 cfm on their test bench, 100 cfm more than their own system. Thats as empirical as you can get.<br><br>2) Air system tests cannot be done on a dyno. Air movement, or the simulation thereof, is required for accurate testing of any air system, including open filter elements. Air pressure, even at the fender inlet, changes as a vehicle moves down the road. Joe's test, which HE WILL READILY AGREE, only shows which air system works on a dyno. You will also notice that the Scotty system (either the I or the II)wasn't present during this test, nor were we contacted about providing a unit for testing. A fact that you conspicuously fail to mention. Joe has graciously agreed to include the Scotty in any future tests he may do. I strongly suspect that the Scotty will not perform as well on a dyno as it does on the street, as it does require air flow to function. Ram air and cowl induction is an unproven theory only in your mind. For those who understand air systems and air flow, ram air has been a proven concept since the 1960s.<br><br>3) For this comment, you'll pardon me if I take an immense amount of offense. Wildcat Diesel, nor myself , have EVER inflated any claims, nor have we EVER misled any of our customers. Our EGT reduction claims are based largely on our OWN testing, and backed by literally hundreds of additional claims by our customers. People who have actually used the system, which by the way, you have not. Your claim that the system does not work has absolutely NO BASIS IN FACT. As for the wide variance in EGT reductions, this is due to the wide variance of outside conditions, altitude, vehicle load, and horsepower levels of the trucks that are using the system. We state on the webpage that our claims are maximum figures and as power and load levels go down, EGT reductions are also reduced.

 

Rod, very well said!

 

Great Rod. I can say without a doubt that the Scotty II works as it was the only thing I changed and my EGT's dropped but as you state I am in the upper HP at over 500. I can see that at lower HP it will depend on the conditions you stated.<br>Just a happy customer<br>Bruce

 

Well Rod, I take offense that you think I'm stupid enough to rely soly on dyno and flow bench results, or not realize that ram induction has beneifcial results. I never stated or assumed dyno tests were the end all on air filter tests. They only tell a small part of the whole story, just like air flow tests tell only a small part of the story. But they are, never the less, more emperical then much of the information you've given.<br><br>You make some other interesting assumptions. How do you know whether I've tried the Scotty or not? How do you know I don't have an advanced degree in physics? How do you know I'm not a trained air flow engineer? You don't know me any more than I know you, but I'm not the one making claims which are hard to believe. I'm asking to see the evidence and theory behind them.<br><br>Why should I believe your claims any more than I should believe Volant's? Yes, your web site doesn't give much in the way of lofty assertions, except I believe it is an extension of what you say here.<br><br>I asked to see facts. I have no doubt that some of your customers are reporting wonderful things back to you. That's appears to be a fact. But I have now idea whether those are casual observations on thier part, or a genuine test where the variables are attempted to be isolated, such as what Steve Covalt just reported (notice, he didn't see a 250* decrease). I have no doubt that your in-house tests also result in what you say. Point me to where you've published tests simular to what Steve reported. Let me see those tests and make my own conclusion. Otherwise your claims are no different than Volant's, in my opinion.

 

[quote author=Bart Timothy link=board=7;threadid=16168;start=15#156706 date=1057372908]
1) How do you know whether I've tried the Scotty or not?

2) You don't know me any more than I know you, but I'm not the one making claims which are hard to believe. I'm asking to see the evidence and theory behind them.

3) Point me to where you've published tests simular to what Steve reported.[/quote]

1) Because you wouldn't be making statements of 100F reductions below the stock airbox, unless you're running under 300 HP and never tow anything.

2) You are not simply asking to see evidence, you are refuting our claims, while not having any basis to do so. You have posted on a public forum, while not having done any research which could possibly prove our claims inaccurate. If you were truly a fluid dynamics engineer, you would understand how having double and triple the ambient pressure at the base of windshield (published numbers from indepedent wind tunnel testing. Link is on the web. A search should find them, as long as they are still up there.) would result in higher air velocity (and resultant more cfm) as the air moves from the high pressure area outside the airbox, to the low pressure area inside the filter (created by the turbo requesting air). You would also understand how the throat of cowl inlet increases air velocity as it moves past the mouth of the housing and into the housing itself.

3) I've personally published at least two test runs here and on the TDR. They were over a year old, and quite frankly, I don't have the time to search for them. I'll post the results of another one our own tests here:

Date: July 14, 2002
Relative humity: 68%
Sunny, no wind.
Elevation - 823 ft above sea level. Indicated by Garmin eMap GPS. Road where test was done is 10 miles of straight, flat highway, rarely ever travelled (not difficult to find in Saskatchewan).

Truck: 2001 Dodge 3500 cab and chassis with flat deck, Edge DRAG Comp, RV275s, IssPro gauges. Truck weight - 7800 lbs.

Load: Goerend tridon gooseneck flatdeck, with 15 6 foot round hay bales loaded and tied down. Load extended ~10 feet above cabin of truck. Weight of truck, trailer, and load - 25,900 lbs. Weight of load and trailer - 18,100 lbs. Weights verified by commercial scale.

This particular test I was attempting to find out if repeated runs from 50 MPH to 70 MPH in direct drive would result in ever increasing EGTs. The test was expanded to include a single 50 MPH to 80 MPH run in 6th (OD) at the end of the 2 runs in direct.

Run 1 - Stock airbox - Temperature - 74F

Direct drive tests - 1250F, 1300F
OD - 1450F - pyrometer peaked rapidly and stayed put
Boost peaked at 35 PSI during each run, due to the Edge elbow being used, which seemed to allow wasting at about that point. Coolant temperature did not exceed 200 indicated.

Run 2 - Scotty II in dual inlet mode - Temperature - 75F

During the swap, truck had cooled down and was driven until coolant temps reached normal operating temps.

Direct drive tests - 1000F, 1025F
OD - 1100F - pyrometer climbed quickly to 1050F, then slowed to 1100F
Boost peaked at 35 PSI during each run, due to the Edge elbow being used, which seemed to allow wasting at about that point. Coolant temperature did not exceed 200 indicated.

This particular test gave us results of 350F of EGT reductions when the truck was heavily loaded. We do not recommend towing these kind of weights at the speed in which we were towing, nor do we recommend lugging a truck down to the extent that we had. We were attempting to emulate some of our hotshot customers, who often have a trailer and load weight of 30K+ lbs.

Wildcat does not publish results of tests like this until we have a minimum of 3 such test results. In total, we've run 30 tests ourselves, with a variety of modifications, under a variety of circumstances. Many of our customers have either emailed us results of tests conducted in a scientific manner, or have posted them on the TDR or DTR. We currently have a customer who is testing the Scotty at 5500 ft of elevation in a variety of circumstances, using a lap top hooked to the data port of his truck to gather IAT values, and a comparison of EGTs to RPMs.

We do not include simple posts of EGT reductions in our main testing database, but file those under supporting claims. We have far too many actual tests (~80 separate tests), backed by supporting claims, to ever post them all here. These tests, and supporting claims, have rendered us EGT reductions from 0F (unloaded, stock trucks) all the way up to 450F (insufficient test data to support 450F claims, so we don't make them). We have 2 separate tests showing 400F reductions, and two customer claims of 400F reductions, however we don't even tend to post those results. We will not post our testing results of competitor's products, as that can open up a whole can of legal worms that we prefer to not deal with.

The ball is in your court, Bart. Find tests, similar to what I've reported above, that refute our claims, before calling into doubt our honesty and integrity again.

Rod

 

I guess I missed this tread when I commented on my personal test done yesterday...I realize my test was probably not very scientific, however, I made 8 runs to try to baseline and average the results..The observations I made were fair and accurate. I was so much impressed with the results, I'm going to work on a slight modification, to prove or disprove my theory of high speed ram air. The Scotty system IMO benefits from its sealed system, and draws cool air not engine air into the turbo. The AFE Mega Cannon may flow more air, however, that air flow is not controlled or sealed from engine heat. The same can be said for the BHAF. That's why IMO the Scotty II in my test out performed the AFE Mega Cannon at lower speeds, as my Ram Air system didn't come into play until 65+mph. I have Doug Hofelt's Air Bull Dog Ram air system and it performs much like the Scotty drawning in cold air in a sealed enviroment. I modified his system as I felt the stock air box and filter media would not provide sufficient air flow at my HP level and especially at lower speeds. Don't get me wrong, Doug's ram air system does work great. I will let everyone know my &quot;un-scientific&quot; results, when I get eveything plumbed.

http://www.dodge-diesel.org/yabbse/g...5&amp;pid=1992

Bart...If you purchase a Scotty II, I have a AFE Mega Cannon, you can compare with...If you still don't like the Scotty II, I'll buy it from you, and either Dee Rawson or myself will sell to someone else..

Steve

 

I bought the scotty 2 becasue of EGT issues with my 35 well it pulled a full 200 degreese + outta my truck consistantly try to tell me that I imagined that The scotty 2 really works and if no BS it just does what it was designed and advertised to do and it sucks cool air! Maybe what we have here is a little inventor jealousy?

 

I appologise if my posts have got off the mark, as it appears they have. I'm looking for answers, and not trying to hasstle any one.<br><br>An astute, close friend just installed the Scotty II on his 12v 450 hp work truck which pulls 5 to 7,000 lb trailers daily. His results have been inconclusive - certainly nothing in the 200* EGT decrease area from a modified stock air box. Prompting me to ask the questions I have. My truck did 475 hp at MM'01 with the stock air box and HX35. It now has a PDR HX40. I think it could use some help.<br><br>I still sit on the fence on whether to purchase a Scotty or not.

 

Bart it has been proven that the scotty doesn't work as well on 12 valves as 24 valves because they move less air this could be why your friend is inconclusive. I dunno what to tell you man I swear it worked for me and it has for others. I feel its the best out there and it proved it to me when I switched from the megacannon to the scotty II so its hard to say why some don't see anything or claim not to. It works for me and I honestly stand behind my scotty II 100%

 

First, I would like to apologize for any strong comments I may have made during the course of this thread.<br><br>[quote author=Jamie Attridge link=board=7;threadid=16168;start=15#156940 date=1057453782]<br>so its hard to say why some don't see anything or claim not to.<br>[/quote]<br><br>Jamie, you've hit the nail on the head. While developing the website, we've had to limit the amount of information that we placed on the website for a couple main reasons:<br><br>1) Too much debate. I used to have an information page up on the Wildcat site, and some folks seemed to take a great deal of pleasure in refuting those claims, even though they were well established in a number of fluid dynamics texts. Eventually, I grew weary of the debates, and removed the pages. It was simply taking too much time away from servicing our other customers.<br><br>2) Information overload. Many of our products are not sold to the big HP diesel guys. Indeed, most of the Scotty systems are sold to the RV and hot shot market. These guys have no desire to root through pages upon pages of test results and air system theories and fluid dynamics laws. Instead, they are depending on our satisfied customers, and Wildcat's reputation for honesty and integrity.<br><br>So, we scaled down our website to include what we felt were the most important points. And since the competition has posted their maximum EGT reductions, we felt that we should do so as well.<br><br>Needless to say, there are a myriad of variables that will influence how effective an air system will be. Some, but by no means all, follow:<br><br>1) 12 valve or 24 valve<br>2) fueling levels<br>3) timing<br>4) ambient air temp<br>5) relative humidity<br>6) size of exhaust<br>7) proper turbocharger selection<br>8) differential gearing<br>9) whether the truck has a bug deflector<br>10) type of bug screen being used<br>11) load<br><br>And the list goes on and on and on. This information comes to us from experience, books, and discussions with other air flow specialists. <br><br>Some of the most minor things can have a pretty drastic effect on the effectiveness of any air system. For example, a recent customer of ours tended to run with his bug screen mostly blocked off due to large number of small insects in his area. His open filter element air system that he added was not doing any cooling at all, which differed from our own testing. He had planned on eating the costs of the product, and purchasing a Scotty. Once the bug screen (by now, effectively a winter front) was removed, his EGTs dropped 100 degrees under load, which was all he really needed.<br><br>To write about all the variables would simply be impossible in the time that I or Scott have at our disposal. And it may start to look like too much 'fine print'. So we handle things on a case by case basis, and most of our customers appreciate the personal touch.<br><br>Rod

 

This thread got a little sideways at one point, but these guys being the gentlemen they are came through in the end.<br><br> Thanks to everyone for keeping the threads informative and yet friendly

 

Jamie Attridge Said, <br>&quot;Bart it has been proven that the scotty doesn't work as well on 12 valves as 24 valves because they move less air this could be why your friend is inconclusive&quot; <br><br>Now that hit below the belt, I am willing to bet my lowly 12 valve at 4200 RPMs is moving more air than your is at 3200. ;D LOL<br><br>I have said it a hundred times, the Scotty 2 works. Steve (HebeRam) has just found out what I had been saying forever. I works, two winters ago I got caught up in the cold air isn't good for you and ran an open K&amp;N in place of my then Scotty 1(Psychotty) and even in 10 deg weather I was seeing 50 deg hotter EGTs just cruising down the freeway @ 75 MPH. <br><br>Bart try it you'll like it.