Mike,

I know that, whatever you did, it would have been a tough decision. I'm glad things turned out as well as they did and hope that you don't have to face this situation again.

Insofar as the practical applicability of Texas law is concerned, basically Texas grand juries hold that a property owner has the right to use deadly force to protect life and property. Let me cite an example.

Our subdivision is in an unincorporated area of Harris County and has 2,610 homes. We contract with the Precinct 4 constable to provide security patrols and have 7 deputy constables assigned to our subdivision. A few years ago, some kids were out of school for the Christmas holidays and were "entertaining" themselves by vandalizing yard ornaments. One of the deputy constables caught them red-handed in one of my employees' front yard.

As the constable was loading the boys into his car, he told them that they were very fortunate that they were only going to juvenile detention. His statement to them was, "If one of the property owners had seen you in his front yard vandalizing his property, he would have been completely within his rights to blow you away, no questions asked, and the property owner would have been no-billed by any Harris County grand jury within a few days."

Texas is probably among the most extreme states in this area, but the principle of the right to protect life and property go back to the cattle-rustling and horse-thieving frontier days of the state. Even though I would be in the same situation as MDW insofar as actually taking the shot is concerned if I came out of the house with the Remington 870 magnum short-barrel 12 gauge, I'm comforted to know that my state will stand behind the property owner, not the felon in these cases.

Rusty

 

Talking about cattle rustling, my uncle was telling me that in Oklahoma if you catch someone stealing your cattle, it is still legal to hang them from the closest tree.

 

MDW
IMHO you did the right thing. Glad it turned out as well as it could, under those circumstances. I have to agree with Dom M and Rusty, you handled the situation very admirably.

wayne

 

NOT TRUE

I have an Oklahoma concelled carry permit, and have had every sense the law went into effect.

In oklahome, deadly force is legal to protect your life, or the life of a family member.
It is NOT legal to use to protect property.

They tell you in the concelled carry class if you ever pull the trigger, be sure you say "I belived my life was in danger".

My instructer also told me (off the record) "never shoot anyone unless you shoot to kill".

 

MDW, I agree you did the right thing, but it gripes me to no end to work hard for the stuff I have and to think some lowlife could come and steal my things because they are too lazy to work. I wish we had a law like Texas, but I don't think we can use "deadly force" to protect property in AR.

 

I wished it were always that easy!

Almost 4 years ago, my wife and I became intimately acquainted with the desperate need for police backup but not getting it when we needed it most.
An ailing acquaintance went wacko and tried to harm his estranged wife and himself.
Early on a Sat morning we discovered this guy had gone wacko and we called 911 before leaving our house. We drove all the way across town at legal speeds, and (hopefully) expected to see LEO's all over his cul-de-sac but not a single officer was to be seen! (Uh oh!)
We went inside and found him with his wife pinned underneath him and him with a gun in his hand attempting to commit murder/suicide...
We jumped him and began struggling with him and working to disarm him. We had him and his gun arm & hand pinned but he was high on caffein, adrenalin, and a blood glucose level of >800!(diabetic). During this initial struggle, their 9yr old son was still in the room pleading with his dad not to do himself in.. My wife temporarily had the guy pinned for long enough for me to get the kid outside to safety where I returned to the tag team wrestling match!
This guy was STRONG being high on adrenalin and glucose and just being nuts!
My wife and I were praying to the Lord for strength and intervention, all the while we were pleading with this guy not to kill himself (or Us)!
While both of us had him pinned, he squeezed off a round into the wall while we had his hand and arm pinned. We both wrestled with him which allowed his wife to escape his clutches (who ran next door and called 911 also).
We were expecting the police to surely spell us at ANY second! Wishfull thinking!
We were eventually able to disarm him, and my wife removed the gun from the room. But he was hell-bent on committing suicide by then uncapping his kidney dialysis shunts and bleeding to death. He was almost successful at that!
I had him pinned pretty well, and my wife let go to call 911 again to tell the PO what was going on inside, and to come in and take over for us!
Still, no one showed!
Not even after calling a 3rd time to let them know again that he had been disarmed and we needed paramedic assistance for him, NOW!
We had worn ourselves out keeping this guy restrained and talking to him trying to get him to give in. (elapsed time of struggling: ~35 minutes after our arrival) Finally, I had him pinned alone and my wife ran outside to see if any police had shown up and to call them inside! Well, they WERE outside but were unwilling (or not unallowed) to come inside and assist EVEN after my wife went outside to usher them in!!! They also wouldn't let her come back inside to assist me either. The front door was standing wide open this whole time.
Eventually abt 8mins after my wife disappeared going outside for help, two PO's and two paramedics burst into the room to finally subdue and save him...
We, to this day can never figure out what happend to prevent the PD's prompt arrival on-scene. I have several good friends in the PD but the system doesn't always work and I have never gotten any satisfactory explanations about that day's events.

If I'd had a weapon on me, sadly I would likely have been justified in shooting the guy to prevent him from harming her, their son or us, but that option wasn't ours at that moment.

Bottom line? Don't assume just by calling 911 it will bring help when/where you need it the most!
Protect yourselves first and foremost! Call 911, but use whatever force necessary to effect your protection.
Thank God Texas still has the deadly force laws to allow us to protect ourselves and others.

Before you guys criticize us for ever wrestling a wacko with a gun, We DID call 911 before we ventured forth and remained on-line all the while we were en-route, we didn't ever expect a gun would be involved, AND yes, by us intervening in time, we were able to prevent a likely triple murder/suicide(ONLY with the Lord's help).
And No, I don't EVER plan on doing anything like that again!

Keith

 

I never advocated dialing 9-1-1 and putting your feet up waiting for the cavalry to arrive.

Just the fact that you (or your spouse) dialed them 1st gets them on the way (or at least makes sure they're aware of the situation) before the manure has hit the rotating ventilator and will probably help things go more in your favor when the post situation legal issues get raised.

I agree with the 'Nuge.
9-1-1 = Government sponsored Dial-A-Prayer.

 

NO!!!

Without even reading the rest of your story, I would never shoot anyone for stealing (even though it's legal in Texas)...and I especially would not shoot anyone as they are turning to run. Taking someone's life, in my opinion, should only be used as a last resort to prevent them from taking your life or the life of someone you love.

That said...I think if I were in that situation given the details you provided....I would have simply taken the keys out of their truck, gone back in the house and called the police.

Of course...I've always said that you can never know for sure how you're going to react until you've been in the situation yourself...and I have not.

 

In my opinion, you did good right up until you fired that shot. You could have easily regretted taking that shot for the rest of your life if you had hit one of them on the run.

Glad it all turned out okay.

 

Technically, he could have legally shot them for criminal mischief since it was night time (they broke his windows). I wouldn't do it though.

 

If we ever lose our right to bear arms, that WILL be all it is!

I'm sure glad I live down here and not any other state or country that strives to take away your ability to legally protect yourself.

As for shooting to kill for stealing, I miss the old days when thieves KNEW you'd shoot to kill.

Keith

 

Tough situation.

Morally, no I wouldn't shoot anyone in the back who was trying to steal my trailer. I understand your frustration and want to protect your property though. If you are trying to harm me opr my Family, then fire away and keep firing.......... But for a trailer and a fleeing criminal, no.

 

The farmers around here always loaded a shotgun with rock salt for watermelon thieves. That **** hurts!

Dialing 911 is definately dial-a-prayer. Also, the police have no legal requirement to protect your life or property and they can't be sued even if they don't respond.

Also, The U.S. Attorney Generals office just published an opinion that the Second Amendment refers to an individual right to keep and bear arms. When it says "shall not be infringed." it makes all of the 20,000 or so firearms laws unconstitutional. IMHO

Edwin

 

Thread split after it got a little off topic.

 

I echo what Shovelhead said for here in Virginia. You can NOT use deadly force to protect property (as bad as I hate to say it). I just took an eight hour course on concealed handgun carry and that very topic came up. I asked the instructor the question what would happen if I backed up a U-haul truck in your drive way, made it very clear to you that I was unarmed and did not intend to harm you in any way and that I was coming into your house to do a little shopping (tv, vcr, jewelry, etc). Your first action should be to dial 911 and the second action would be to try and disable me without the use of deadly force, NOT a gun. I figure that the inside of my house is the last few square feet of privacy that I have on this earth but there are those that would argue that unfortunate as it may be.
As far as the warning shot, that would have also went south here in Virginia. Remember, once you pull that trigger, you can't take it back. Is a piece of property really worth ruining your life over? Don't get me wrong, I hate it too but unfortunately we have laws out there that are for the criminal a majority of the time, not the victim.
Now, if you threaten me of any member of my family, it's on then. That's another story though.