In Virginia, we have to abide by different rules.
We cannot use a firearm to protect mere property.
We don't have a Make My Day law here.
Property is property and is insured.
However, any attempts to mess with my family or myself will be an entirely different matter.
We can use a firearm to stop a threat of death or severe bodily harm to ourselves and our loved ones.
We do not, "Shoot to kill" We "Fired until the threat to my life was removed"

The only difference I'd have in your scenario would be, this first sound the perp would hear (and maybe the last, depending on his next move) would be the safety snicked off on the 12 ga pump.

Forget the "Testosterone Tactics" and the Mall-Ninja stuff.
Either it's a "good shoot" or it's not.
As for the "put a weapon in their hand and claim self defense"......
I wouldn't want to fabricate evidence that will probably give the DA, a jury, and the Bad Guy's family (don't forget the "Wrongful Death Civil suit {Johnnie was just lost & confused. He's a good boy, and the gun owner was looking for trouble}) more rope to try to hang me with.

Edit to add:
A shot to the back would be VERY difficult to explain as "I was in fear for my life".

IANAL
YMMV

 

I don't know about your state laws, but where I live he has to be an immediate threat to your life. Also you cannot protect personal property with deadly force, but you could have broke his knee caps w/ a 2x4. Also if you point a gun at someone they can charge you with assault with a deadly weapon,crook or not.

 

NC must be much more restrictive.
If I'm going out to investigate the sound of breaking glass on my property in the middle of the night, I'm not planning on waiting for the Bad Guy's permission to put the front sight on him.

What happens in the daytime in town on public property is a differnet matter.

"Brandishing" a weapon is a horse of a different color.

Step ONE should always be dial 9-1-1.

Old Joke, but a Goodie:

As I was going to bed the other night, I noticed people in my shed stealing things.

I phoned the police, but was told there was no one in the area to respond. They said they would be over as soon as possible.

I hung up. A minute later I rang again. "Hello," I said, "I called you a minute ago because there were people in my shed stealing things. You don't have to hurry now, because I've shot them."

Within minutes there was half a dozen police cars in the area, plus helicopters and an armed response unit. They caught the burglars red-handed.

One of the officers said, "I thought you said you'd shot them."

To which I replied, "I thought you said there was no one available.

 

Taking the shot is and should always be the LAST resort period.

If the guy turns and runs then you have succeeded in protecting your property, anything beyond that and you are liable for prosecution and rightfully so. To the best of my knowledge there is no Death Penalty for stealing your property, even though we may feel like there should be at times.

If your life is threatened then we have an entirely different scenario and the shot could be justified, only you know if the perps actions suggested any immediate life threatening danger to you. And that is the ONLY thing that warrants taking the shot.

A lot of guys talk with great bravado, they will tell you that they would have shot the guy and been durned happy to do it. I can tell you first hand there is no joy in taking some ones life, you have to live with the consequences the rest of your life. I don't recommend it to anyone!

 

Don is right and the repo story is true. You could have smoked the guy and would have been let go by any grand jury in Texas. They have very aggressive laws down there on protection of property and especially protection at night. IMO the rest of the country should follow suit. I have heard countless stories from Dad about his times working in Texas and the laws there are definitely for the victim.

John

 

Here's what I did:
When he saw me as you know he said something like "oh no or oh god" and put his hands in front of him. I guess he thought it might stop the bullet. I let him turn and run along with his partner. I had to wait several seconds as they were so slow to make sure I didn't kill either one. I put a shot right past the ear of the last one as they made there get away, about 50-60ft from me.
I retained thier vehicle and turned it all over to the police and am now hoping for a good outcome.
I also am looking into fencing the lot where the trailers are but funds will probably not allow it.

I'm grateful of the input and hope noone has to face this decision as I have.

P.S. I knew it would be have been within my rights concerning the law to take both of them and when I went out I fully intended to do just that. I guess thier reaction was good enough for me in the split second to let them go now we just have to wait to see if they are stupid enough to come back. I will say that if they do they will not leave my property alive, period. I know this statement might offend some and as to that I appologize.

Thanks, Michael

 

I disagree:

There doesn't appear to be any threat of deadly force in this particular case. Also, once the thieves turned and started running, they have stopped committing the crime of stealing the trailer, so you have already stopped the imminent commission of the crime. Now, para B. says that you can prevent them from escaping with your stuff... MDW didn't say if he could tell if they had things in their pockets, but their hands were empty, so that one doesn't apply. Finally, since MDW's property was already "recovered" for all intents and purposes, this law doesn't give him any right to shoot the thieves. I think he made the right choice.

I do have one question for MDW, though: the shot you took "past their ears". Where did that round go? Do you have a large enough piece of property to be sure it wouldn't hit anyone else? OK, not one question, but also, what if you had missed their ears and hit their head? What then?

I do agree that if more people had guns as well as the training, discpline, restraint and - most importantly - the will to use them when necessary, thieves would think long and hard before they broke into someone's house or property to steal or worse!

 

Im with Top. And adding to that; part of being alive IMO, is to be a part of preserving life.

Mike, your a good Man. Im glad you did not shoot the guy. No grand jury in the area you live in would have billed you and sent it to the prosecutor, but like I said..... A theif is not always a killer and they dont deserve death in all cases.

I cant think of any material thing I own worth killing someone over. I came to be with nothing and will take nothing with me when I go. Its only stuff. Now, if you present a severe threat to my fam, my buddies, or even an innocent by-stander and you are living in your last moments if I can make that happen.

Your a good guy Mike. In a moment, you made the right decision. Having the abilty to make the right decision like that in a split second and under duress is not something we all have!

Don~

 

Well you just admitted having the advantage over them prior to taking the shot, for all to see. I hope you fare well on this anyway though. Not even police are allowed warning shots in MOST places. Many states still have the "fleeing felon" laws on the books, but that doesn't mean they aren't obsolete. If you use lethal force to protect property, you can hope for the best, but there's a good chance you'll lose.... depends mostly on how good a lawyer you can afford to convince the jury your still the victim. Should've called the police, at least then someone would've been enroute to help you just in case things went the other way. Picture the "other guy" shooting YOU. "Your honor, Pete didn't have a gun and I thought that man was gonna kill him, so I shot HIM first." Not trying to bash you too hard, just some more stuff to think about.

 

In Commiefornia you can't even shoot someone that is IN your house. I guess you're supposed to be understanding of their dysfunctional childhood and make them a pot of coffee.
Doesn't make sense.

 

Here's a nutshell version of Utah's laws.

Deadly force cannot be used to protect property.

Deadly force can be used to protect person, either your own person, or another person.

Where the two cross depends on the circumstances.
I.E. someone steals your truck, then tries to run you over with it, and you put a shot through the windshield, that is considered "self defense"
Putting a shot through the side glass, or rear glass would not be "self defense".

You may beat the tar out of someone for trying to steal your vehicle, but you can't shoot them in the leg.
Using a gun is considered "deadly force", introducing said leg to Louisiana Slugger is not.
Why the difference?, you can kill someone with a bat as well as a gun.

Uninvited person in your home is fair game, as long as they remain in your home.
If you shoot them in the doorway, they'd better fall forward, if they fall backward they are no longer in your home, so give them a couple steps before you fire.

Coming home and surprising a burglar raises the question, was he/she there to hurt you or just take your stuff?
If you were home when he/she entered, then who knows what they were after.

Discharging a firearm within city limits is illegal.
You can't fire into the air or put a shot into the ground to scare them off.
City councilman was found guilty of this when he tried to scare off shady characters.

Moral, never shoot to maim or scare, always shoot to kill,

Even with all the above scenarios, just because you are found not guilty of murder by self defense, there is nothing stopping the family from going with a civil suit.


So, in the scenario this thread started with, no, I would not have shot them or even shot at them.


phox

 

If an intruder is in my home, I assume he isn't there for a friendly visit. I DON'T assume he's only there to steal stuff. There are lots of home invasions for rape and just plain torture/murder for me to make that assumption. So unless the lights are on and I can clearly see that the intruder is fleeing then I shoot. I don't speak or give any warning. If it's dark I assume he has a weapon and is capable of using it.

This is MY code and I don't care what state I'm in or what the law says. I am in fear of intruders in my house in the dark so I shoot.

I would also support legal deadly force against thieves even if they are known to be simply stealing and even if they are running away. I might not do it but I think that others should have this right to protect their property and getting rid of thieves has a positive effect on society as a whole. IMHO

In the U.S.A. the use of deadly force in self-defense is still legal in all 50 states. It doesn't matter where you are or whether you use a gun or not. You could be charged with illegally carrying or possessing a weapon but it's use in self defense is still legal.

It's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Edwin

 

by not killing the guy, you probably saved your self a whole bunch of headaches, there would be investigations, a trial, and enough legal wranglings to make your head spin.... You have his truck, (assuming that isn't stolen too) you effectivly have the thief as well. In my mind you did the right thing. (secret confession here though, I'd sure like to bury the guy that keeps going through my work van... )

 

Looks like its time to post again.

To the question of the warning shot: I made sure before firing the shot where it was going to end up. There was a concrete block wall behind them that is a unused business. I would not have fired had I not known where the bullet was going and thats why I took a extra second to determine where it was going to stop.

The reason I started this thread was not to debate laws but as I have been told I could have legally killed him as long as the bullet went in the front which I had opportunity to do but morally would you take the shot?

Forget laws, civil law suits, etc....

I very much appreciate your input and am looking into the fencing idea but it look to be cost prohibitive.
At this point it looks as if I will do my best to defend my property but they will probably get it eventually.

Michael

 

You know, a big old dog would probably stop them from coming back. Would I have shot the guy, I don't know. I guess it depends on how I was feeling right then and there. I could blow smoke up your skirt and tell you "heck yeah I'd shoot him" but I'd be lying. I think you did the right thing.