Mexstan

Sure. Here are a few:

"Slay them wherever you find them [Christians and Jews]...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches..." (Surah 3:156-)

"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)

"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

Tengu

Mexstan,
You are right on all counts, except they are the same God. The Jews, Christians, and the Muslims all worship the "God of Abraham". You are right though about all else though. However I don't belive that the country will be destoryed any time soon.

AlpineRAM

Mexstan- According to http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/ the suras 2:190 - 2:193 read different. Which source do you use?
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Sura 4:103 [4.103] Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.

Sura [3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.
I think that you can check for the ten commandments in the christian religion too.

I don't want to start a war (jihad, by the way an arabic translation of the words bellum sacrum by a pope sending crusaders), but to point out that both books, the bible and the koran are very easily misinterpreted and can be used by quoting isolated pieces out of them to suit every agitator's needs. This is probably due to the language shifts since both of these books have been written.

AlpineRAM

rangerst

Heck Yeh, our country is upside down and in need of a good purge. I prefus this as my opinion based on my experiences. And all the WW2 vets I speak to agree this ain't the place uncle sonny died for! Yet not one of them talks of fixing, opposing or supporting any of the organized religons as being a solution!

Radicals, traitors, terrorist etc are defined according to which side of the fence your on and who's doing the name callin'. Our founding fathers were guilty of treason compared to some and a guy named swamp fox Francis Mariot was known to hit and run and generally not engage the Red Coats in honorable fashion. [terroristic tactics perhaps]. I personally believe religon, spiritual pursuits and personal beliefs aren't public school classroom topics. I do believe gun safety and marksmanship is a skill that should be required in our schools and gun ownership should be preferably mandatory. Some would think this a radical suggestion but the bad guys would take pause to think if every single person in the market had the ability and right to return fire while exercising prudent gun control! Pass the word, this isn't a fish bowl anymore... in my opinion.

The old timers prettymuch see a revolution as required to take back what has been slowly taken. Take back personal freedoms , take back personal liberties and restore integrity via accountability. One old timer said "if the terrorist want it that bad, let 'em have it. Then Let them clean up and afterward we'll take 'er back! These guys are up around 80 years old and express sad resignation to the slide Mexstan refered to.

I don't hear what's going on on the west coast, but in the mid west and back east ,from everywalk of life except the legal sector, there is growing unrest waiting on the spark of unity to elevate these United States and its' citizens onward to the next plateau of freedom once again for all.

blackjack

Alpine you are right what I speak of may in fact reduce liberties and without a doubt there is a certain amount of censorship implied. Honestly it even teeters on not being willing to turn the other check any longer. Censorship is all around us the very fact that any country requires a passport and scrutiny upon entering is in fact censorship. Laws around the world are designed to censor the unwanted behavior that goes against the will of any peoples society. Do we somehow think that denying a Christian the right to pray to God, or the right of patriots to publicly pledge allegiance is not censorship? we allow these censorships to go on everyday and in the name of not allowing these rights to censor someone Else's rights Baloney. Almost as silly as listening to Who's on first. I as an American possess no right to threaten your family or my own for that matter our laws censor that behavior. Why then would it seem unreasonable to expect that any activity that threatens me,or you ,and our families with our lives, because we are Christians come under the same censorship I can not dig deep enough to find the distinction yet we allow it everyday. Freedoms and rights are in fact governed by the laws of the land. The other right that Americans need to re discover is the right to change and re-define those laws through the democratic process. Our most sacred constitution is set forth in amendments and we as a people . together can establish new amendments and make changes as times and circumstances bring about that need. The right and ability to do so defines this document as perhaps the most important vehicle to our continuing freedom.

As to limiting liberties, the same arguments apply to governing liberty as to censorship. No place is it written that liberty is without boundaries. I can make the case that I can move onto my neighbors property and that my right to liberty precludes his right to quiet enjoyment, we know that is not the case. In some respect our fore fathers left us with a huge responsibility to stand as a nation and police these rights and liberties.We as a nation have been unwilling as a whole to shoulder that responsibility, and have instead overlooked those duties when the consequences have not directly affected us. Our own ( baby boomer's) shirking of these responsibilities has left our children without the training and experience to deal with these problems. perhaps our parents were the start of these failure but in any respect living the good life for today has run the tab up and now demands payment. Without the tools and knowledge to deal with them we may doom ourselves to failure through ignorance.
I do not want to censor or remove liberties because someone believes differently, however when those beliefs threaten to destroy the foundation of this nation then I will fight and ask god to grant me strength to overcome my enemies wherever they may be.

Mexstan

AlpineRam, I honestly do not know the version I quoted but have seen the same things qouted in other places so presume that there is some continuity in this. I am not an authority on the Koran so cannot enter into a debate on it or the apologetics. All I do know is that many people a lot more knowledgeable than me on this subject are all saying the same thing.

AlpineRAM

Mexstan: I think that especially you who are usually very tough on the media seem to disregard some basic rule here. The Koran is an open source, you'll find it online or in any better bookshop- nevertheless you quote something unverified, and when questioned you rely on "authority of knowledgeable people"
I think you do exactly the same as you criticise the media for- spin doctoring information.
This is in no way meant as a personal insult. I just wanted to show you that you, as everybody, are prone to get into the same trap regarding information.

By the way, I'm no muslim but I have lots of muslim acquaintances whom I do respect.
I bought a Koran to know whether what people are saying about it was true or not. I am no authority on the Koran either, but some misquotes are very popular over here- and if you tell people that this isn't what sura XX:XXX says, the usual response is that it must be somewhere else and "I'm no Koran authority"

Blackjack: I think the problem, isn't that the laws should be changed- I think that according to what you wrote that there are laws regarding all that you do criticise. I think it's basically laws are not enforced.
A change in the constitution must be legitimated by democratic means IMHO, and should not be done on the whim of some pressure groups. I think it's one of the great advantages of the USA is that the constitution is still readable by ordinary people, and is short enough to be understood.
AlpineRAM

Mexstan

[This is in no way meant as a personal insult. I just wanted to show you that you, as everybody, are prone to get into the same trap regarding information]

AlpineRam, you are absolutely correct. In this case I got sloppy and did not completely verify something before quoting it. All I did was to go to just one source that I know follows the same line of thinking of many others, so PRESUMED the quotes to be accurate. I do however still think I am in the ballpark with what I have been saying. Would like to say lots more but not here.

blackjack, good post.

AlpineRAM

Yes I think in some portions you are right- but in some porions there is a lot that is assumed to be in the Koran that simply isn't there. Most of it is in the scriptures and comments of some followers of this religion. The bad thing I wanted to point out is that if people believe that these things are in the Koran they will condemn all muslim people. The situation is analoguous to the time of the crusades. Political and financial motives were backed up by deliberately misquoting the Bible to make people go there and "free" the holy land. Accordingly the muslim's world got the impression of christianity through those folks there and then- basically indoctrinated radicals who would answer to anything that this is in the Holy Bible etc. I think the situation is quite similar now for there are radical groups who will have a lot of publicity and their views will be attributed to the Koran in total.

AlpineRAM

Mexstan

Just to clarify, I am not attributing all the 'bad' Muslim stuff to the koran. A lot of the information comes from the so called muslim leaders and they have twisted the koran to suit their personal agendas. Having said that, I suppose the same could be said about many things, even unfortunately the Bible. Perhaps it s a combination of the koran, the urging of the 'leaders' etc that are presently threatening America so badly. It all boils down to a spiritual war.

AlpineRAM

I think that declaring muslim=bad is an error. I think that all religions can be used as a disguise towards evil goals. And that's what happens now in the US and a lot of other countries.
All of the agitators use the same means- twisting and turning the books of these religions.
I have seen "Christianity" and the Bible at work in Africa. Much more radical than the average muslim congregation in those parts I visited. That's the cause why I seem to defend the Koran. I do respect all religions, and I judge people by their individual acts.

AlpineRAM

Tengu

Mexstan,
Happy Cinco de mayo! I think you are right to point to the interpratation rather than the scripture itself. Blaming terrorism on Islam is like saying all christians are child molestors. However Preists who molest children deserve to be placed in general population and radical terrorists deserve their current fate. There is no such thing as a bad student of religon or anything else, only bad teachers. Unfortunatly for many of the Muslims of the world (particularly Wahabanists) bad teachers are the rule not the exeption.

Mexstan

Just saw this in todays news. Posted with no comment:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=28562

AlpineRAM

Well, yes this one spells out some stuff I couldn't word so clearly. Lukewarm mouth only "Christianity" being the problem. Actually the whole USA could live together with people who lived the standards set out by Christianity and not really care about their religions. And these standards are reflected in the laws.
But IMHO more and more people do simply live after the 11th commandment: " Thou shallst not be caught redhanded" and forget about the first ten.

AlpineRAM

jfpointer