Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
08-13-2003, 09:41 PM
#1
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Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
Moderators MIGHT wanna look this over - feel free to delete if you feel it's too controversial a subject for this group...
(up on soapbox)
You are in a grocery store, and see a shopper taking items off the shelves, looking around furtively, and hiding them in their clothing - a shoplifter - what do you do? You see another person in an auto parts store taking items and also pocketing them - another shoplifter. As you car is being serviced in a local garage, you see another customer pocketing mechanics tools as the mechanic is under his car working on it - what do you do?
What if any one of the above individuals asks you to be his lookout as he steals stuff - would you do it? Most would indignantly say certainly NOT - that's dishonest, and makes ME an accomplice to an illegal activity! Absolutely CORRECT!
Would your opinions on the issue change if YOU were the business owner, instead of a customer? Why?
YET. it frequently happens in groups like this, that owners will install various power mods on their trucks - and then when a related drivetrain component fails, begin scrambling frantically to "remove the evidence" of their warranty-threatening devices so THEY can trick the dealer into providing replacements and labor to which they are no longer entitled under the terms of the vehicles warranty.
What's the difference - and is it really anyone else's business - and what about if the fella planning the fraud openly asks YOU to be his "accomplice" by providing advice on the best way to deceive the dealer? Situation ethics?
In the case of the stores mentioned above, when their profits are reduced due to excessive theft, they can either close their doors, or increase the prices their HONEST customers must pay - so in a way, the honest folk are forced to pay for and subsidize the dishonesty of of the lawless - and some of those lawless are bold enough to expect US to help them - and get REAL upset if we dare call their acts what they really are!
NOW, I'm not aiming this at ANYONE, or calling ANYBODY anything - after all, I have no idea who does what - but I am sorta curious as to what others opinions re on the subject - should we really just "shut up" and look the other way when we're exposed to this stuff - or asked to "help out"...
What do YOU think, do we as onlookers have any obligations to object or resist, or do we simply look the other way, "live and let live", and keep our feelings to ourselves?
(off soapbox)
(up on soapbox)
You are in a grocery store, and see a shopper taking items off the shelves, looking around furtively, and hiding them in their clothing - a shoplifter - what do you do? You see another person in an auto parts store taking items and also pocketing them - another shoplifter. As you car is being serviced in a local garage, you see another customer pocketing mechanics tools as the mechanic is under his car working on it - what do you do?
What if any one of the above individuals asks you to be his lookout as he steals stuff - would you do it? Most would indignantly say certainly NOT - that's dishonest, and makes ME an accomplice to an illegal activity! Absolutely CORRECT!
Would your opinions on the issue change if YOU were the business owner, instead of a customer? Why?
YET. it frequently happens in groups like this, that owners will install various power mods on their trucks - and then when a related drivetrain component fails, begin scrambling frantically to "remove the evidence" of their warranty-threatening devices so THEY can trick the dealer into providing replacements and labor to which they are no longer entitled under the terms of the vehicles warranty.
What's the difference - and is it really anyone else's business - and what about if the fella planning the fraud openly asks YOU to be his "accomplice" by providing advice on the best way to deceive the dealer? Situation ethics?
In the case of the stores mentioned above, when their profits are reduced due to excessive theft, they can either close their doors, or increase the prices their HONEST customers must pay - so in a way, the honest folk are forced to pay for and subsidize the dishonesty of of the lawless - and some of those lawless are bold enough to expect US to help them - and get REAL upset if we dare call their acts what they really are!
NOW, I'm not aiming this at ANYONE, or calling ANYBODY anything - after all, I have no idea who does what - but I am sorta curious as to what others opinions re on the subject - should we really just "shut up" and look the other way when we're exposed to this stuff - or asked to "help out"...
What do YOU think, do we as onlookers have any obligations to object or resist, or do we simply look the other way, "live and let live", and keep our feelings to ourselves?
(off soapbox)
08-13-2003, 10:14 PM
#2
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
well IMO removing the offending parts and tricking the dealer is the same as stealing
although it was tempting when I had to replace my nv4500 and the truck would have still been under warrenty if it didn't have the comp on it .........but I knew what I was getting into when I put the parts on so in the end I paid
although it was tempting when I had to replace my nv4500 and the truck would have still been under warrenty if it didn't have the comp on it .........but I knew what I was getting into when I put the parts on so in the end I paid
08-13-2003, 10:17 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
Well i have never personally had trouble with an engine in that i ended up pulling a chip or other mod to take it in to the dealer. However what i have had experience with is taking a truck in for warranty work on something unrelated and pulled off a chip. For example, when i had my Ranger in a dealer at one time for a brake fix, the dealer noticed I had an aftermarket chip & air intake installed and blamed those modifications for the brake failure. I'm no engineer, but i do not see the relation. They explained to me that it was a "racing" modification and that it meant i had been racing and caused the brakes to fail. Now I have been known to accelerate a little quick, i do not see the correlation between that and my rotors getting eaten up way quicker than acceptable as i don't autocross my trucks and do not place excess amounts of strain by accelerating quickly. What i did notice was the dealer didnt even blink an eye at my oversize tires (well over 7 inches taller than stock) which would probably put more stress on brakes than any engine mod. I would never try and fool a dealer into warrantying a part that i actually screwed up - as is often the case with fueling mods on a diesel related to injection pumps. But when a dealer is reaching as far as blaming a chip for brake failure, i don't agree with that at all and wouldnt feel like a criminal for having taken my chip off before going in for service.
(wooo that was quite a novel
)
(wooo that was quite a novel
)
08-13-2003, 10:20 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
My power steering pump seems to be leaking. I have injectors, gauges , TSt PMax3, Mega Cannon, 4" exhaust etc....
Now, do you think they will fix my problem or void my warranty? (truck is under warranty)
Since the problem is unrelated to my mods, would it be unethical to at least pull the box or chance it and go as is?
Now, do you think they will fix my problem or void my warranty? (truck is under warranty)
Since the problem is unrelated to my mods, would it be unethical to at least pull the box or chance it and go as is?
08-13-2003, 10:31 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
My truck had 116,000 miles on it when I bought it. As is , no warrenty. I break, I pay. I will have to cross that road if I am ever rich enough to drive on it. :
08-13-2003, 10:34 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
I have bought 4 trucks from 3 dealerships, and here is what I've learned from all of them.
1. If you have anything on your truck that's not stock, that's what caused the problem that you're having, no matter what's wrong, no matter what the modification is. I've found that usually talking to a manager or someone else will change this opinion. I think they do it to see someone will fall for it and pay.
2. If you go in for something totally unrelated to your modification, it will be noted for future warranty work on your truck, wether it is related or not.
It seems that it's not only me that has had this same thing happen to them. It seems that the dealerships are trying to screw us more than we are trying to screw them. The fact is that most things that go wrong on a truck, one and only one thing cannot be diagnosed as the cause. It is way too easy for a dealer to see something "non-stock" and blame it on that, whether it's the cause or not. And it happens way too often. Things go out and break on stock trucks all the time. I actually know a mechanic at a chevy dealership that told me that the first thing they do on warranty work is to look all through the truck to try to find something "non-stock" to blame the malfunction on. Also I don't see how you can call it stealing when all the dealership does is pass the cost of warranty work on to dodge or cummins. Sure, they can deny payment, but it would have to be something obviously wrong for that to happen.
1. If you have anything on your truck that's not stock, that's what caused the problem that you're having, no matter what's wrong, no matter what the modification is. I've found that usually talking to a manager or someone else will change this opinion. I think they do it to see someone will fall for it and pay.
2. If you go in for something totally unrelated to your modification, it will be noted for future warranty work on your truck, wether it is related or not.
It seems that it's not only me that has had this same thing happen to them. It seems that the dealerships are trying to screw us more than we are trying to screw them. The fact is that most things that go wrong on a truck, one and only one thing cannot be diagnosed as the cause. It is way too easy for a dealer to see something "non-stock" and blame it on that, whether it's the cause or not. And it happens way too often. Things go out and break on stock trucks all the time. I actually know a mechanic at a chevy dealership that told me that the first thing they do on warranty work is to look all through the truck to try to find something "non-stock" to blame the malfunction on. Also I don't see how you can call it stealing when all the dealership does is pass the cost of warranty work on to dodge or cummins. Sure, they can deny payment, but it would have to be something obviously wrong for that to happen.
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08-13-2003, 10:43 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
Sparkchaser, none of your stuff should effect your warranty on the power steering pump. Pulling the obvious things like the box and maybe the air filter will keep you from getting interrogated and having your truck marked for any future warranty work. I don't see it as unethical at all by doing this, since your modifications obviously have nothing to do with your power steering pump. Or do they? You never know what the dealer will say
08-13-2003, 10:54 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
I am my own warranty station. You play you pay. ;D If it is a hose or something that is not related I take it in and the dealer (my dealer) fixes it. Presentation makes a difference. I don't take anything off,and I am honest.
08-13-2003, 11:15 PM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
Along the lines of a couple of the above comments - I've heard about some dealerships noting obvious mods, and making notations as to their presence in case of future warranty claims - and I have to recognize their "right" to do that based upon the acts of some who will remove those items if future related claims occur. I recently had to take my truck in to get a mirrior replaced under warranty - I suppose in the view of some, I should have removed the Comp box sitting there in plain sight of the service writer and mechanic who drove the truck into the work area - but I too figure I'm my own warranty station - gonna play, be prepared to pay...
So what would *I* do if my tranny failed somewhere in the not so distant future? Shucks, I'd drive it on down to the dealership and at least TRY to get it fixed under warranty - but if they balked because of the obvious Comp, I'd pay for it myself, no argument - because there IS a good chance that the added stress of the Comp would cause premature tranny failure, and I know it...
Are WE entitled to lie or cheat because of what some dealers do? No more than I am entitled to rob or murder because some individuals do - they are responsible for THEIR actions - and will eventually PAY for them in one way or another, just as *I* am responsible and will have to pay for mine - another's dishonesty does not justify or excuse ME doing the same thing.
I'm not responsible for what others do - but I certainly am accountable for what *I* do!
;D ;D
And just MAYBE, I'm ALSO a little bit responsible for the wrongs I see OTHERS do, and don't object to...
So what would *I* do if my tranny failed somewhere in the not so distant future? Shucks, I'd drive it on down to the dealership and at least TRY to get it fixed under warranty - but if they balked because of the obvious Comp, I'd pay for it myself, no argument - because there IS a good chance that the added stress of the Comp would cause premature tranny failure, and I know it...
Are WE entitled to lie or cheat because of what some dealers do? No more than I am entitled to rob or murder because some individuals do - they are responsible for THEIR actions - and will eventually PAY for them in one way or another, just as *I* am responsible and will have to pay for mine - another's dishonesty does not justify or excuse ME doing the same thing.
I'm not responsible for what others do - but I certainly am accountable for what *I* do!
;D ;DAnd just MAYBE, I'm ALSO a little bit responsible for the wrongs I see OTHERS do, and don't object to...
08-14-2003, 12:27 AM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
Your only obligation in the end is to yourself. Anything more is pompous and irritating. If you actually believe the stories you tell, well I have to think you may be the leader of some movement or something. The dealerships are notorious for "sticking it" to the customer when it comes to warranty work. You cannot deny that this is not the case. The interesting part of this story occurs when you yourself have a failure that is not remotely related to your mods. You now have a dilemma, and it is easy to sit back and say you play, you pay when it's not your money. BUT when it becomes financial for you, maybe you change your tune a smidgen. Not that it would do any good, but in the back of your mind there is an angry guy who needs some justification from the guy who is prying your wallet open. These scenarios happen every day, and I for one will continue to give advice to those who need it to correct a failure that is NOT related to the performance enhancing upgrades that have been utilized on their vehicles. And ask yourself this, Gary. Do you really think because you read posts on this topic it makes you an accessory to the "crime"? I don't think anybody here, regardless of their beliefs is going to change the way they approach their dealer now or in the future. So if it offends you to be witness to it, don't read it. Or maybe we could get everybody who is going to ask for help on these "morally questionable" issues to mark them "for adults only". Would this help you to sleep better at night? I think to each his own and live and let live. If it doesn't DIRECTLY effect you. leave it alone. Good luck and don't let that soapbox give you any slivers.
08-14-2003, 05:33 AM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
It's been fairly clean so far so lets keep it that way guys and gals. I know we can do it without me having to drag out the locks and chains.
08-14-2003, 06:29 AM
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Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
Sparks,
The extra stuff you put under the hood has placed such an overload on the front end that the power steering pump has to overwork itself to compensate. ALL CLAIMS DENIED.
Now you could have hung a 25,000 lb winch off of a plate steel bumper and they would think it's good looking.
The extra stuff you put under the hood has placed such an overload on the front end that the power steering pump has to overwork itself to compensate. ALL CLAIMS DENIED.
Now you could have hung a 25,000 lb winch off of a plate steel bumper and they would think it's good looking.
08-14-2003, 08:07 AM
#15
Thats MR Hoss to you buddy!
Re:Situation ethics - a rose by any other name...
For once....confrontational as he may be....I agree with Gary on this one. Dishonesty is dishonesty. Let's call a spade a spade. Two wrongs don't make a right....and just because some dealers try to cheat their customers out of warranty work for unrelated mods doesn't mean that their customers should try to cheat them in return. Everyone here knows the possible consequences of putting mods on our trucks. We shouldn't complain when the dealers legitimately refuse to honor the warranty because something WE did is what messed it up.
My truck is stock. The only thing I have done to it is remove the silencer ring. If I ever have turbo problems then I know and understand that by removing the silencer ring I have modified the turbo and the dealer may choose not to honor the warranty. If that happens, what will I do?? Well, of COURSE I'll try to convince the service manager that removing the ring does absolutely nothing to the turbo....but in the end, if they don't want to pay for it then I will. I've got the ring and clip in a drawer in my garage. I could easily pop it back in before taking it in for service. Will I do that? No.
Just my opinion....
My truck is stock. The only thing I have done to it is remove the silencer ring. If I ever have turbo problems then I know and understand that by removing the silencer ring I have modified the turbo and the dealer may choose not to honor the warranty. If that happens, what will I do?? Well, of COURSE I'll try to convince the service manager that removing the ring does absolutely nothing to the turbo....but in the end, if they don't want to pay for it then I will. I've got the ring and clip in a drawer in my garage. I could easily pop it back in before taking it in for service. Will I do that? No.
Just my opinion....