[quote author=PistolWhipt link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=15#msg206313 date=1068091534]
Exactly ... wrong is still wrong even if noone sees you doing it.

I don't agree with fighting a ticket just to get your digs in with "The Man". If you have been in a courtroom lately, you know how packed the docket is with goobers that are all "Innocent". This is what prevents the rest of us from having the right to a speedy trial.

PISTOL

[/quote]

But there's a distinction between "wrong" and merely "illegal." For example, it's "illegal" for someone under 21 to buy a beer in the U.S. However, given that individuals under 21 can and do enlist in the military, potentially and actually putting their lives on the line for their country, I would suggest that it's probably not "wrong" for them to do so.

If the courts are overwhelmed and unable to provide a speedy trial then perhaps a higher judicial authority needs to step in and provide some guidance.

 

[quote author=jfpointer link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206449 date=1068130619]But if you think holistically about most traffic offenses, and by that I primarily mean speeding, it's the system in an overall sense that's wasting taxpayers' money, not the individual fighting the ticket. Consider how much more effective law enforcement could be at policing real crimes (theft, murder, etc.) if they weren't forced (I say "forced" because it's normally a political decision) to expend resources on stuff like people going 10 mph over an arbitrary speed limit that's probably 20 mph lower than it could safely be. That represents a significant loss of potential policing activity that nonetheless creates a monetary return through the money paid in fines. By fighting speeding tickets, we the people can both exercise our rights and express our dissatisfaction with using police power solely to extract revenue by making it as unprofitable as possible.

I should mention that if you cause harm to someone, you should be held liable, of course.
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying, but still, the law is the law. If I'm going to break the law by going 65 in a 45 then I shouldn't complain if I get caught and have to pay a fine. Whether I thought 45 mph was too slow or not, I knew that the speed limit was 45 mph and I chose to go 65 mph instead...maybe because I was in a hurry....maybe because I thought I knew better than the law....maybe just because I like to drive fast. Either way, I knew the law and I knew I was breaking it. I also knew that if I was caught breaking the law then there would be consequences. That's part of the problem with this country today....people don't want to take responsibility for their actions (not meaning YOU jfpointer...just people in general).

Now....if we don't like the law, then we have ways of getting laws changed.

 

[quote author=jfpointer link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206459 date=1068131235]But there's a distinction between "wrong" and merely "illegal." For example, it's "illegal" for someone under 21 to buy a beer in the U.S. However, given that individuals under 21 can and do enlist in the military, potentially and actually putting their lives on the line for their country, I would suggest that it's probably not "wrong" for them to do so.[/quote]

Personally, I disagree with this. I was taught to obey the laws of the land. Therefore, if something is illegal and we do it anyway, then we are wrong (in my opinion).

Just because the law itself might be wrong in some people's eyes doesn't mean that it's NOT wrong to break that law. Make sense?? In other words, if you think the law requiring people to be 21 to drink is wrong, that doesn't mean that it's okay to break that law because you disagree with it.

As I said before though, there is a system in place that lets us change the laws if we think the law itself is wrong.

You're right about there being a distinction between "wrong" and "illegal" though. For instance, it's not illegal for me to cheat on my wife, but it is wrong. Same with abortion....it's not illegal (although I personally think it should be), but it's still wrong (at least in my opinion). Being wrong doesn't make it illegal, but being illegal does make it wrong (again, at least in my opinion).

 

[quote author=Hoss link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206460 date=1068131460]
Now....if we don't like the law, then we have ways of getting laws changed.
[/quote]

You hit the nail right on the head! That's exactly what I'm talking about, using civil disobedience in hopes of changing the laws. And yes, a practitioner of civil disobedience should be prepared to pay the penalty, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should roll over and do so without a fight. In my mind, if you know you're actually right even if you're not legally right, you should stand up for yourself in the most vigorous fashion possible.

 

[quote author=jfpointer link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206469 date=1068132191]You hit the nail right on the head! That's exactly what I'm talking about, using civil disobedience in hopes of changing the laws. And yes, a practitioner of civil disobedience should be prepared to pay the penalty, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should roll over and do so without a fight. In my mind, if you know you're actually right even if you're not legally right, you should stand up for yourself.
[/quote]

I see what you're saying, but I think there are better (and more effective) ways at getting laws changed than using civil disobedience.

My question is this though...when you originally said that we should all fight EVERY ticket....was the purpose for fighting the ticket to get out of the ticket or to have the law changed so that the speed limit is higher? The impression I got was that you think we should fight tickets for the sake of getting out of them (or getting the fine reduced). If that's the case, you're not doing anything to change the laws....you're just wasting yours and taxpayers money because you don't want to take responsibility for your actions. Now, if you're purposely speeding (civil disobedience) in hopes of getting the speed limits increased, then that's a different story. Although, I think you're just wasting your time and money on that one because they're not going to raise the speed limits simply because you keep speeding.

 

[quote author=PistolWhipt link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=15#msg206313 date=1068091534]
Exactly ... [glow=red,2,300]wrong is still wrong even if noone sees you doing it.[/glow] I don't agree with fighting a ticket just to get your digs in with "The Man". If you have been in a courtroom lately, you know how packed the docket is with goobers that are all "Innocent". This is what prevents the rest of us from having the right to a speedy trial.

PISTOL

[/quote]

Maybe... but the cop has to see it happen. Another problem with "the system".

 

[quote author=Hoss link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206464 date=1068131696]
[quote author=jfpointer link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206459 date=1068131235]But there's a distinction between "wrong" and merely "illegal." For example, it's "illegal" for someone under 21 to buy a beer in the U.S. However, given that individuals under 21 can and do enlist in the military, potentially and actually putting their lives on the line for their country, I would suggest that it's probably not "wrong" for them to do so.[/quote]

Personally, I disagree with this. I was taught to obey the laws of the land. Therefore, if something is illegal and we do it anyway, then we are wrong (in my opinion).

Just because the law itself might be wrong in some people's eyes doesn't mean that it's NOT wrong to break that law. Make sense?? In other words, if you think the law requiring people to be 21 to drink is wrong, that doesn't mean that it's okay to break that law because you disagree with it.

As I said before though, there is a system in place that lets us change the laws if we think the law itself is wrong.

You're right about there being a distinction between "wrong" and "illegal" though. For instance, it's not illegal for me to cheat on my wife, but it is wrong. Same with abortion....it's not illegal (although I personally think it should be), but it's still wrong (at least in my opinion). Being wrong doesn't make it illegal, but being illegal does make it wrong (again, at least in my opinion).
[/quote]


Wow Hoss... I actually agree with you

 

In theory it is all good, but talk to any owner operator that runs from state to state. You do the best you can but are always in violation somewhere. Wait till January 4, 2004 when any short run operator will HAVE to cheat on his logs.

 

[quote author=Hoss link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206464 date=1068131696]
Personally, I disagree with this. I was taught to obey the laws of the land. Therefore, if something is illegal and we do it anyway, then we are wrong (in my opinion).

Just because the law itself might be wrong in some people's eyes doesn't mean that it's NOT wrong to break that law. Make sense?? In other words, if you think the law requiring people to be 21 to drink is wrong, that doesn't mean that it's okay to break that law because you disagree with it.

As I said before though, there is a system in place that lets us change the laws if we think the law itself is wrong.

You're right about there being a distinction between "wrong" and "illegal" though. For instance, it's not illegal for me to cheat on my wife, but it is wrong. Same with abortion....it's not illegal (although I personally think it should be), but it's still wrong (at least in my opinion). Being wrong doesn't make it illegal, but being illegal does make it wrong (again, at least in my opinion).
[/quote]

I agree with you when it comes to common law--murder, theft, anything that proscribes activities that cause clear and provable damage to another individual.

But look at something like the so-called assault weapon ban--the weapons banned were used in only a statistically insignificant number of crimes, they were banned by appearance, and what difference does it make if I carry two 7 round magazines or one 15 round magazine? Furthermore, since it's a federal law, it's clearly unconstitutional, whether Charles Schumer and his ilk want to admit it or not. To make things even worse, in the time that it's been in effect, it has had no discernible effect on crime. :

So which is the greater good with respect to my responsibilities as a citizen, to meekly allow them to take away my rights, or to defy them and keep my "assault" weapon? Sure, it's a law, but it's a bad and unconscionable law that deserves to be defied and disobeyed. Unfortunately, too many laws outside of the common law fall into this category. So I say that when a law is clearly bad, we as citizens have a responsibility to make that known by our words and actions. Otherwise we allow ourselves to become subjects and not citizens.

I might be a bit of a radical... ;D

 

[quote author=Hoss link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206474 date=1068132586]
I see what you're saying, but I think there are better (and more effective) ways at getting laws changed than using civil disobedience. [/quote]

Such as?

[quote author=Hoss link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206474 date=1068132586]
My question is this though...when you originally said that we should all fight EVERY ticket....was the purpose for fighting the ticket to get out of the ticket or to have the law changed so that the speed limit is higher? The impression I got was that you think we should fight tickets for the sake of getting out of them (or getting the fine reduced). If that's the case, you're not doing anything to change the laws....you're just wasting yours and taxpayers money because you don't want to take responsibility for your actions. Now, if you're purposely speeding (civil disobedience) in hopes of getting the speed limits increased, then that's a different story. Although, I think you're just wasting your time and money on that one because they're not going to raise the speed limits simply because you keep speeding.
[/quote]

I'm guilty of being imprecise--my statement was in reference to tickets that fall into the category of the thread subject or other arbitrary categories such as speed limits. Common sense would dictate that if you got a ticket for a broken tail light and the video shot from the police car clearly shows the broken tail light, there's probably not much point in fighting it.

But taking responsibility for actions applies to the government too, so just because 6 out of 7 city council members think the speed limit on a certain stretch of highway should be 55 mph instead of 65 mph just so they can make a lot of fine money doesn't necessarily mean that 55 mph is a reasonable speed limit for that stretch of highway. So if enough people protest that speed limit by driving faster and contesting their tickets, perhaps a message is being sent that even a politician can understand.

And let's hope everybody's not waiting for me to speed enough to get the limits raised... I normally don't go much more than 5 over. I'm just not in that big a hurry.

 

Actually, it's not wasteing any of the taxpayer's money. There is a court cost added in every ticket given in Texas, whether you just pay the ticket or fight it. By fighting it, you're just putting to use the court cost that your paying anyway. Also, the other falsity of slowing down the legal system really doesn't apply either. Every state or county or any kind of court system has a seperate court for traffic tickets. It's seperate from Civil and Criminal trials, so it's not slowing down either one of those systems.

 

I agree and disagree with abunch of what has been said and refuse to say which was what or who. ;D I will however say that I have not been shot for my DUI and hope not to be. I was very young and very stupid when it happened back in 88. I payed severly and rightfully so. My speeding ticket in 86 was well deserved and I have gotten by with much more than I have been gigged for. Guess a police officer has the right to use his/her best judgemnet and when that judgemnet becomes biased, well maybe it is time for a vacation or a new line of work. I can only imagine how difficult that job is and respect, for the most part, all who wear that uniform. I will say that I like loud pipes on a bike cause they save lives. It aint easy being seen by 4 wheelers and other crazies. So the easy I am to be noticed on my skooter, the better I feel. Your bikers ABATE clubs have better training and literature on those topics and for both the rider and the others on the road. It all boils down to integrity of all involved and the experience levels. Anyway, that is my 2 cents and trust me I got more in the piggy bank! PM me if you'd like the full version. Thanks to all the honest police officers out there and God Bless you for doing the job at such a small salary.

 

[quote author=jfpointer link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206551 date=1068145422]I agree with you when it comes to common law--murder, theft, anything that proscribes activities that cause clear and provable damage to another individual.

But look at something like the so-called assault weapon ban--the weapons banned were used in only a statistically insignificant number of crimes, they were banned by appearance, and what difference does it make if I carry two 7 round magazines or one 15 round magazine? Furthermore, since it's a federal law, it's clearly unconstitutional, whether Charles Schumer and his ilk want to admit it or not. To make things even worse, in the time that it's been in effect, it has had no discernible effect on crime. :

So which is the greater good with respect to my responsibilities as a citizen, to meekly allow them to take away my rights, or to defy them and keep my "assault" weapon? Sure, it's a law, but it's a bad and unconscionable law that deserves to be defied and disobeyed. Unfortunately, too many laws outside of the common law fall into this category. So I say that when a law is clearly bad, we as citizens have a responsibility to make that known by our words and actions. Otherwise we allow ourselves to become subjects and not citizens.

I might be a bit of a radical... ;D
[/quote]

I understand where exactly you're coming from....but that still doesn't mean it's not "wrong."

I better way to change the laws is to become politically involved. Write letters to your congressmen, senators, etc. Get out and vote. Become actively involved in what's going on out there. There may be times when civil disobedience is appropriate...maybe even necessary. Most of the time though it's not gonna do anything but cost you money and your point isn't gonna be made.

 

[quote author=jfpointer link=board=10;threadid=21960;start=30#msg206560 date=1068146495]But taking responsibility for actions applies to the government too, so just because 6 out of 7 city council members think the speed limit on a certain stretch of highway should be 55 mph instead of 65 mph just so they can make a lot of fine money doesn't necessarily mean that 55 mph is a reasonable speed limit for that stretch of highway. So if enough people protest that speed limit by driving faster and contesting their tickets, perhaps a message is being sent that even a politician can understand.
[/quote]

I completely agree with you....BUT....I don't think everyone deciding to speed on a certain stretch of road is going to persuade the city council (or the state) to raise the speed limit. If anything they're going to get a little grin on their face and start putting more cops on patrol on that road. Basically, if raising the speed limit is your objective, I don't think using civil disobedience is the right way to go about it.

 

This one is for DF5152, It's FUNNY what you said about the WHITE guy being in a "neighborhood" he "didn't" belong in at that time of night, what about a Black guy being in a "neighborhood" that HE does not belong in late at night, he hands that white guy the bag, the white guy hands him the money. OH I get it, he's just delivering pizza. Try calling the PO PO down here and telling them this. The last time I did, this is what they said " sir, we know what is going on at that house,all they are doing is a little pot, there's NOTHING we can do". My response was " well blow me away, I'll be planting my crop and undercut their prices", " but sir, if you do that we'll have too arrest you". WHAT is wrong with this picture, the dopers move into a house, ruin our neighborhood, and we are the bad guys.
And for everyone else here, I have a straight pipe, and it sounds good, no problems yet. ALL the tickets I have ever got where deserved for acting a FOOL, even got some AFTER I cut my pony tail off for my father before he passed away, growing it back now, so I'll have to see it they PROFILE me.