A REALLY good reason to keep your driver's license, reg., and insurance REAL handy
12-14-2007, 03:43 PM
#46
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JD it's starting to sound like the modern day LEO's
want to try, convict, and carry out the sentence on people before it ever gets to the court where it belongs. I think I'll pick up a taser so I can shoot people that talk back to me or give me dirty looks. I mean after-all what's a little thing like due-process or Constitutional rights when you can get by with murder or aggravated assault and just get 3 days suspension for it. What would happen to a normal citizen if he tased someone that hadn't touched or attacked him in an act of violence. I bet it would take a good Lawyer and a bunch of cash to keep you out of jail for starters.
want to try, convict, and carry out the sentence on people before it ever gets to the court where it belongs. I think I'll pick up a taser so I can shoot people that talk back to me or give me dirty looks. I mean after-all what's a little thing like due-process or Constitutional rights when you can get by with murder or aggravated assault and just get 3 days suspension for it. What would happen to a normal citizen if he tased someone that hadn't touched or attacked him in an act of violence. I bet it would take a good Lawyer and a bunch of cash to keep you out of jail for starters.
12-14-2007, 03:50 PM
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mcoleman if you followed the the last taser thread you know I am VERY critical of it replacing hands on. What you posted is how you feel and I respect that. The issued at hand on the side of the road is not sentence related. He had a legal detention and someone detained who appeared unwilling to identify himself. At that point he is justified in going hands on to frisk or take into custody. It is a use of force issue, not as simple as one guy mouthing off to another.
12-14-2007, 03:53 PM
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mcoleman if you followed the the last taser thread you know I am VERY critical of it replacing hands on. What you posted is how you feel and I respect that. The issued at hand on the side of the road is not sentence related. He had a legal detention and someone detained who appeared unwilling to identify himself. At that point he is justified in going hands on to frisk or take into custody. It is a use of force issue, not as simple as one guy mouthing off to another.
12-14-2007, 04:00 PM
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Tasing a guy in the front seat of a car that is running certainly presents its own hazards. I can't speak for why he did what he did. In his shoes I would order the driver that would not produce a DL out of the vehicle to pat him down for weapons and hopefully a wallet that contained ID, the whole time explaining why it was happening. I'll remain silent on the actual use of force because it is a pending civil case. Just wanted to share some background on the star of the video and maybe get guys that don't do traffic stops for a living thinking about how complicated they can be.
12-14-2007, 04:03 PM
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Tasing a guy in the front seat of a car that is running certainly presents its own hazards. I can't speak for why he did what he did. In his shoes I would order the driver that would not produce a DL out of the vehicle to pat him down for weapons and hopefully a wallet that contained ID, the whole time explaining why it was happening. I'll remain silent on the actual use of force because it is a pending civil case. Just wanted to share some background on the star of the video and maybe get guys that don't do traffic stops for a living thinking about how complicated they can be.
12-14-2007, 04:07 PM
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If fear is the justifable reason to use such force then we should all be scared. In a substantially armed nation fear of the general public and the fear of Police is causing incidents like this to be on the rise this trend will continue to rise unless one of the contributing factors changes. The general public is to large and diverse to be changed also it does include the criminal element. The Police are or should be a carefully selected and educated group as such are more easily controlled. So it just makes sense that they take the lead to affect social change. Even the worst history student has to realise that human rights are self determined by the underdog in the long run.
12-14-2007, 04:56 PM
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In a sense much of this boils down to what and who is "trainable", how much can be trained into the individual, and does the individual's physio/psycological profile fit with & is compatable with the training for the mission?
In short, is the guy cut out for this line of work. Not everyone is. Each line of work or mission if you will has certain degree of unique and inherent risks that MUST be approached, dealt with, and managed. Each person is unique and deals with these risks in their own way given their training. Those who are or become unable to deal with and manage that risk develop and show UNMISTAKABLE signs such as PTSD, unjustifable aggression, repeated instances of being unable to communicate effectively, just to name a few.
Sometimes the solution is more training, couseling, time off, but sometimes it becomes apparent the individual is just not up to or no longer able to perform this duty or mission.
In the same sense that if you cannot deal with being shot at, involved in crashes, or dealing with sudden emergency situations; you should NOT be a military pilot or special ops. Conversely, if you cannot deal with the public and the certain potential risks that presents; you should not be a police officer.
I don't say this in a derogatory or condescending context. We are ALL human and have our shortcomings. There just has to be a better way to handle and address the public than this. Those who are not up to it should NOT be in that line of work or should be removed or moved to other duties where they are not likely to encounter such incidents.
We ALL ARE the public. Not all LEO's are bad. Not all the public is bad. There has to be a reasonable approach somewhere in between. Control of a situation can be had WITHOUT hair trigger & instinctive resort to violent force. Good training and common sense go a long was towards preventing aggressive and arrogant first contact with the public which is highly likely to trigger or increase the chance of resistance or hostile reaction.
A good and humorous example would be to try these aggressive tactics with your wife and see what kind of response you get.
I have an idea it would get me the frying pan and the couch REAL fast. 
12-14-2007, 05:00 PM
#53
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About 9 years ago the officer in that video was almost killed in the sector I was working at that time. He was off duty/in uniform when he stopped to assist what he thought was a stranded motorist, turned out to be an attempted robbery. Tom ended up in a scuffle with the suspect who overpowered Tom and took control of his handgun. As Tom and the suspect struggled for control of the handgun rounds were fired hitting Tom's personal car and the suspect's vehicle. When Tom knew he was losing the fight he ejected his magazine knowing the S&W he was carrying wouldn't fire it's last round. Probably saved his life.
The suspect escaped, me and other units got him the next night at a nearby apartment complex. Think that changed his perspective on "non compliance" regardless how small it appears to you on the screen in the comfort of your home? A guy that will argue over something as simple as providing a DL is telling you to kick it up a notch. Why doesn't he want to, warrants, armed, dope, or just having a bad day? You are betting your future on the response to the assessed threat. This would have been one of countless uneventful videos had it not been for the non compliance of the guy stopped. Argue the time line and attitudes all you want, won't change that simple fact. In fact I believe Chris Rock even made a paraody of this very scenario, it was called "what not to do to get your a** kicked by the police"
For those in the Austin area the deal 9 years ago happened at the 7-11 Rundberg/Cameron.
My apologies to Jack Thorpe, I told him I would not post here any longer.
The suspect escaped, me and other units got him the next night at a nearby apartment complex. Think that changed his perspective on "non compliance" regardless how small it appears to you on the screen in the comfort of your home? A guy that will argue over something as simple as providing a DL is telling you to kick it up a notch. Why doesn't he want to, warrants, armed, dope, or just having a bad day? You are betting your future on the response to the assessed threat. This would have been one of countless uneventful videos had it not been for the non compliance of the guy stopped. Argue the time line and attitudes all you want, won't change that simple fact. In fact I believe Chris Rock even made a paraody of this very scenario, it was called "what not to do to get your a** kicked by the police"
For those in the Austin area the deal 9 years ago happened at the 7-11 Rundberg/Cameron.
My apologies to Jack Thorpe, I told him I would not post here any longer.
Stay safe,
Tim
12-14-2007, 06:16 PM
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When these guys (PO) answer a call/traffic stop they never truly know what the whole deal is case in point
A few day's ago here a PO was answering a call for suspected drunk driver
He was changing his tire in a downtown gas station, PO approached to investigate. Dude see's him coming and immediatly draws out a handgun and starts opening fire luckly he was a bad shot, PO was not.Perp is now dead, big investagation ongoing PO off duty after briefing and will be interviewed by the shrink and may not return. You could not pay me enough to due there duties.
And I would rather be "Tazed then K9nd"
A few day's ago here a PO was answering a call for suspected drunk driver
He was changing his tire in a downtown gas station, PO approached to investigate. Dude see's him coming and immediatly draws out a handgun and starts opening fire luckly he was a bad shot, PO was not.Perp is now dead, big investagation ongoing PO off duty after briefing and will be interviewed by the shrink and may not return. You could not pay me enough to due there duties.
And I would rather be "Tazed then K9nd"
12-14-2007, 08:54 PM
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My only problem with this thought is, that I work around police every day...luckly I am one of the good guys(Firefighter) but cops use this line all the time. But what it really amounts too is, that they were pullied in school and this is the time that they can pay it back. The majority of cops get their rocks off by using excessive force....Where I work if you have a mva, or a citizen assist you might as well figure 30+ minutes for a cop. But if they get a chance to fire there weapons of beat somebody up you can have 15+ cops in a matter of a few minutes... So while it is a good thought, times have changed and the 12 you are being judged by just might put you in a place where you will get a large boyfriend..... 99% of the time there are other outs besides excessive force.
12-14-2007, 09:34 PM
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What it really amounts to is this, I would rather be judged by a jury of my peers, than be dead. I would gladly accept a jury's decision (whether it meant me going to prison or not), in exchange for my life.
I am not an action junkie, I am not on a power trip, I was not bullied as a child, I do not do it for the money (there isn't much).
I do it because I believe I can make a difference, I do it because I genuinely enjoy helping others, I do it because most of you can't or won't.
That being said, there are people in this world (yes even in your safe little town where everyone knows everyone else) that need to be dealt with, for lack of a better term. The majority of the time these interactions go without incident or problem, but occasionally the actions of these people require more than just a stern tone of voice. Like I said before, the outcome of our interaction is solely based on your decisions. Make good ones and our meetings will be as pleasant and brief as I can possibly make it, make bad ones and our meeting will not be so pleasant.
I do this job everyday, and I will not judge the actions of a fellow officer.
When you have done the same, you can decide if you have the right to judge.
I am not an action junkie, I am not on a power trip, I was not bullied as a child, I do not do it for the money (there isn't much).
I do it because I believe I can make a difference, I do it because I genuinely enjoy helping others, I do it because most of you can't or won't.
That being said, there are people in this world (yes even in your safe little town where everyone knows everyone else) that need to be dealt with, for lack of a better term. The majority of the time these interactions go without incident or problem, but occasionally the actions of these people require more than just a stern tone of voice. Like I said before, the outcome of our interaction is solely based on your decisions. Make good ones and our meetings will be as pleasant and brief as I can possibly make it, make bad ones and our meeting will not be so pleasant.
I do this job everyday, and I will not judge the actions of a fellow officer.
When you have done the same, you can decide if you have the right to judge.
12-14-2007, 09:54 PM
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Let see.. he was asked to produce paperwork THREE times.. the kid says whoa whoa whoa hold on. WHAT?! Officer's in control buddy. Gets asked AGAIN.. and then argues no..
At this point the kid shows resistance to every command the officer shows.
Gets asked to step out of the vehicle, produce paperwork again. Steps out while arguing.
Gets asked to step to the back of the vehicle. Stands still arguing.
Cop attempts to close the car door (probably to prevent him from running).
Throws his left arm up like he is going to strike the officer..
Still refuses to move to the back of the vehicle.
TASER well deserved.
Gotta love how the race card was used there too... many times.
Officer was pretty calm and in control and showed lots of reservation.. during the argument and after while the kid was trying to provoke him even more.
Horrible that anyone would take the kids side.
At this point the kid shows resistance to every command the officer shows.
Gets asked to step out of the vehicle, produce paperwork again. Steps out while arguing.
Gets asked to step to the back of the vehicle. Stands still arguing.
Cop attempts to close the car door (probably to prevent him from running).
Throws his left arm up like he is going to strike the officer..
Still refuses to move to the back of the vehicle.
TASER well deserved.
Gotta love how the race card was used there too... many times.
Officer was pretty calm and in control and showed lots of reservation.. during the argument and after while the kid was trying to provoke him even more.
Horrible that anyone would take the kids side.
12-14-2007, 10:09 PM
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Can this topic be changed to...
"A Real good reason to legally equip your vehicle, obey the speedlimit, produce identification, not mouth-off, and not flail arms around officer."
"A Real good reason to legally equip your vehicle, obey the speedlimit, produce identification, not mouth-off, and not flail arms around officer."